Eagler's Nest
General Category => Off Topics and General Interest => Topic started by: 914pete on February 08, 2016, 07:48:28 AM
-
I perused several posts and it seems the preferred rod is RG-45 or ER-70S2 for O/A welding. I've never gas welded before and will enjoy learning a new skill. One thing I didn't notice (or missed) was the preferred diameter of rod. Can anyone chime in on what diameter rod works best for the LE? I'm sure a skilled O/A welder can use any diameter but I'm wondering if there is a better choice for the thinned walled tubing used in the LE fuse and for someone whose never gas welded before.
-
Just my two cents here - I used 1/16th and most others I know of have used the same dia. The one way to look at it is,, if your fishmouth fit up with the tubing needs a larger diameter, you probably need to spend more time on getting that tighter. A few practice pieces used for getting the fit right and some welding practice will put you on the path....
Info.... your last weld on the fuselage will be the weld you wish you had at the beginning.... But other than John Bolding, I think we all felt that way.... Hint - Watch the Puddle, it will tell you what you need to do after a little practice.....Good Luck, Build one piece each day if you can, and have fun.
Hugh
NightEagle
-
Can anyone chime in on what diameter rod works best for the LE?
Pete,
See if you can get some .045 diameter filler just to try it. The larger the rod the more it cools the puddle.
Like Hugh says, you want good fitting joints... The better the joint coping fits, the less movement during the welding.
If you hear a loud pop while welding, a joint probably moved a microscopic amount...
You will go looking for something being broken somewhere, but not find anything.
The bigger the gaps the more stresses can be present from the puddle shrinking while cooling. (mig and tig mostly)
The Oxy-Acet process, and post weld normalizing should keep this to a minimum.
You may be able to talk a local shop into cutting off some pieces .045 mig wire so you can try it out. If you like it you can buy a small spool...
The ER -S2 filler has less chro-mo and manganese, than S-6. It mixes with the parent metal though and is said to be more ductile.
-
914 Pete
99% of the time you will be able to use 1/16th rod as stated.. I would avoid using run of the mill (or often used mig wire) as it is very often of tensile type that we don't want in our aircraft builds. Please note that I say often. It could be exactly what you need- depending on your shop/location/supplier.
Having a tube of fill rods, is far easier to keep track of, than a cut off piece/pieces of mig wire. Plus you can store for nearly forever in your cheap home made fill rod tubes. You shouldn't go over two pounds on the legal eagle size aircraft, as I build far larger ones and almost always end around 3# rod used. And often you can buy in 1, 2 and 10# containers. (you could buy two 1# er's.)
That was a new one on me, about hearing a large pop- then relating this sound to a micro movement in the frame- I suppose, but almost for sure if your gas welding, and your getting popping sounds, your tip is dipping into the puddle and the welding gas, is getting snuffed and then relights, milli-second later. This will improve with your skill. There are fantastic welding lessons on youtube. Welding tips and tricks would keep you busy for days watching.. Pick the ones that are most helpful to your project.
Often covered but not stressed, is the simple fact of making several tack welds, always keeping in mind the next tube coming in. But you will want as many tack welds as you can do- This keeps everything in place for your final welding. (always a good thing) I figure a properly tacked up frame probably could make a flight or two.. without being welded complete. Thus you be assured that when you have them fully welded, you will be in good shape.
Best of success.
-
I would avoid using run of the mill (or often used mig wire) as it is very often of tensile type that we don't want in our aircraft builds.
Scott,
Mig wire has the same metallurgical properties as TIG wire.
When they have the same designation they are EXACTLY the same animal.
One comes off the extruding die in cut lengths, one comes on a spool.
The "ER" in ER70S-2 means it can be used as an electrode or filler rod.
The "70" in ER70S-2 means it is 70 thousand psi tensile minimum.
The "S" in ER70S-2 means it is solid wire. Flux core or dual shield wire is tubular, it has to contain the flux.
The - 2 in ER70S-2 designates the alloy of the oxidizers used, usually silicon and manganese, and to a lesser extent titanium, aluminum, and zirconium.
Mig uses it as electrode, tig or gas processes use it as rod.
Perhaps you should try some ER70S-2 .045 MIG wire for your filler, you might like it.
http://www.airgas.com/product/Welding-Products/Filler-Metal/MIG-Wire-%28GMAW-%26-SAW%29/MIG-Wire---Carbon-Steel/p/ESA1042F07 (http://www.airgas.com/product/Welding-Products/Filler-Metal/MIG-Wire-(GMAW-%26-SAW)/MIG-Wire---Carbon-Steel/p/ESA1042F07)
http://www.esabna.com/euweb/awtc/lesson6_10.htm (http://www.esabna.com/euweb/awtc/lesson6_10.htm)
-
I would avoid using run of the mill (or often used mig wire) as it is very often of tensile type that we don't want in our aircraft builds.
Scott,
Mig wire has the same metallurgical properties as TIG wire.
When they have the same designation they are EXACTLY the same animal.
I'm totally good with this, IF you know what MIG wire you have.. I have found that many, new tig welding or gas welding folks, just assume the wire they are using is one of the call outs you listed. If the coiled wire is one of those, no problems in my book. So yes, with the added words, "if they have the same designation" I'm all for it, if you want the smaller dia. wire. And of course you can get the smaller wire in rods/tubes as well.
I probably have 50#'s of fill rods, of perhaps 10 different designations. All serve a certain purpose. But that would be muddling the waters.
cheers
Scott
-
Thanks for the info fellas. I'm going to start with 1/16" to practice with and see how that goes. I take my time with the copes so they are pretty good. As far as the type of rod I'll have to see what the local welding supply house carries. Ideally I guess a pound of each RG45 and ER-70S2 would be good to practice and get started with.
-
Ideally I guess a pound of each RG45 and ER-70S2 would be good to practice and get started with.
Have fun Pete, it's a trip... Soon you will be able to weld up the crack of dawn...
-
Hugh, Thanks for the kudos but believe me, the fuselage I'm welding now is better than the one before it. I have a 5 tube cluster I cut out of an old Piper or Champ I was parting out and the welding (gas) is pure art. Done most likely by a 60 yr old guy (or gal) that was welding tubes together since childhood. Every time I think I'm getting pretty good I look at that cluster to bring my ego back to reality. It's 98% PRACTICE.
By the way , I have used 1/16" rod from the get go. I have read a couple of accident reports yrs ago where a contributing factor was too small a fillet on a weld. I use a little less than 2# on an XL fuselage/gear
John Bolding
-
It's 98% PRACTICE.
By the way , I have used 1/16" rod from the get go. I have read a couple of accident reports yrs ago where a contributing factor was too small a fillet on a weld. I use a little less than 2# on an XL fuselage/gear
John Bolding
Try it JB and let us know. That will settle it once and for all...
You have to feed the wire more, according to what the puddle needs...
I saw a video of the Cub factory weldors gettin after it... They were fast.
It looked like they had the torch up really hot. (no .045 mig wire back in the 30's)
It appeared as though they had 3 motions. Pause, run the heat up the wire, and back the torch up to burn it in good.
I have seen some Oxy- Acet welding that looked like it grew there... Mine looks like I picked up a dog tird and hammered it on.
-
I found the video...
Skip it to 4 minutes in... Looks like about a 1/8" rod, but they keep whipping it with the torch flame... Sparkles like RG 45.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6q1VKsTeKQ
-
I found the video...
Skip it to 4 minutes in... Looks like about a 1/8" rod, but they keep whipping it with the torch flame... Sparkles like RG 45.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6q1VKsTeKQ
Great Vid! Almost look like an LE at 4:00. Thanks for sharing.
-
My first OA weld, yikes! OK, this is going to take some practice. (1/16" dia ER70S2)
-
Pete,
My first one looked just as bad. Don't worry about it, don't get discouraged, just burn up some more rod... I found practice at laying a bead along the length of tubing helped me in the beginning. I was not having to worry about the edges of the fishmouth burning out and I could put more attention into watching the puddle. I watched for little sparks coming off the metal, which usually was a sign that I was about to burn through, just lift the torch a bit, then back on the puddle. Start with thicker wall and move to thinner. If it happens a lot, you maybe be running too hot or too big a tip, sometimes adjusting speed will compensate - You will need more heat at tube cluster, the more clusters the more heat or slower speed - You will develop a rhythm with your torch and rod feed, actually, it is magic as it happens without you realizing it :-) - keep the flame in a neutral state. Hope this helps, there are a lot of pros out on this site that will provide tips as you go along.
-
My first OA weld, yikes! OK, this is going to take some practice. (1/16" dia ER70S2)
You're on yer way dude...
It's like computers... everybody starts at the same place.
Try not to ever leave yourself a joint like that to weld on your airframe.
You left yourself 2 cut edges at the end of that joint... Best practice is to leave one tube long, weld it and cut the extra length off.
Rudder pedal joint cut on a 45 is one place you can have this and may want to cut the heat way down and go to .045 rod.
Be sure you have a neutral flame just coming off the feather. Leave a little blur or out of focus-ness on the inner cone.
If you see the puddle getting too hot, lift the heat off of it enough for it to keep from making a hole, but keeping the puddle and rod in the flame to protect them from oxidizing.
One dab at a time... You don't start out welding like the guys at the Cub factory.
Think -- heat, puddle, dip, move. A string of tacks.
You will learn how far to keep the rod away to keep it hot, but near enough for it to be ready to dip without sticking.
When you stop, just raise the heat enough to stop welding, but keep the puddle and rod protected until they cool some.
Tilt the torch 45 degrees down the weld line, and tilt it away from that cut edge enough so that both pieces are taking the same amount of heat... Hold the rod 90 degrees to the torch.
How do you know they are taking the same heat..? Trial and error.
Try a particular angle and apply heat. When the pieces turn red take the heat away.
You have the right angle when they both loose redness at the same rate.
2 attachments. Disregard fig. 3 (back hand)
Practice, practice, practice.
-
Been a long time since I held a torch... but one comment I have read here or as a result of stuff here that really stuck out to me dealt with thinking of the heat sink affects around your weld. In this case you have one tube right at the end that does not sink as much heat as the other tube. And sure enough that is the one that melted into a hole. So need to move the heat over onto the intact tube more and less on the tube end.
Do not throw this weld away, instead see if you can "fix" it by welding up the hole. That takes creating a mini-puddle at the edge and building it up with rod. And working fairly quickly back and forth over the edge of the hole.
-
One more attachment Pete...
Print it out, and go to the recycler or sheet metal fab shop and buy some scrap... Get some 1/32, 1/16 plates, and some 1/8 maybe.
Do some thick to thin practice too perhaps.
When you get the mojo working, jump back on the tubing.
Give it about a week of good hard practice, and see how it is going then.
Send in another pic... Hell, send us one every day. :emoji_u1f619:
-
Another good practice, if you are just learning to weld, is to go to hardware or big box store and get short piece 1" x 1" square steel tubing and practice running beads, then wending tees. it is thick enough to learn the basics of melting, heat control, puddles and peddle.rod/heat control. once you get good with it then move to the thinner wall tubing.
-
Great advice guys, thanks! I practiced some more yesterday just trying to lay a bead down on the same piece of 5/8" .035 without burning a hole through it. I tried the 3/32" RG45 and it seemed a little easier to work with. I'm wondering if its because there is more material there to use as a heat shield. I am getting a lot of sparks though. Both the 1/16" ER70S2 and the 3/32" RG45 are by Weldcote. I cheaped out on the equipment and bought the HF Medium duty OA set up. Couldn't afford the $400 name brands. I have to say, it seems to be of good quality.
Question, this kit came with a VM-W-0 tip. Trying to adjust to a neutral flame, the flame is a narrow cone, quiet, not positive about the color (i'm colorblind) and close to 12" long. Is that normal? Seems like a long flame. Does a 00 tip produce less flame length and would that be easier for me to learn with? Also, I seem to be getting a lot of slag. I'm not sure where those chucks of metal in the pic came from but it was from me welding.
-
May be a stupid question to ask here, if so just ignore me, but are you cleaning the tubing before you start welding. Lots of that stuff comes with a oily covering to hold off rust. Also helps to remove any 'Milling Scale' in the weld area if it is heavy on the tubing. I think that may be what we are seeing there on the ends where all the rough stuff is, also maybe lending to your 'slag' issue... You should not be having any real slag with this type of welding. Where did you get your tubing - Wicks Aircraft? Unlike Dillsburg who only sold German tubing, I understand they sell Chinese and German tubing. - Just some thoughts of what you have going on there. Send a picture of your torch flame in the welding configuration, if you can...that may give more info to work with.
-
May be a stupid question to ask here, if so just ignore me, but are you cleaning the tubing before you start welding. Lots of that stuff comes with a oily covering to hold off rust. Send a picture of your flame at the welding configuration your using, if you can...that may give more info to work with.
They were cleaned with acetone prior, however, these scraps have been kicking around a very dirty work station and no, I didn't clean them again prior to practicing on them. Stupid me.
This is probably a stupid question, should I be cleaning the rods as well?
I usually use Acetone to clean steel when mig welding. Ok for AO welding?
-
I think the acetone is fine for cleaning the tubing -- I use a wire wheel on one side of my grinder for removing the Mill Scale after I fit the piece just before welding. That seemed to work for me. The only time I found myself 'cleaning' the rods was later in the build when some rust started to showing on them, and I would just grip some steel wool in my hand and around the rod to remove the heavier spots of rust... My shop 'sweats' at times and I can get condensation on nearly every metal part in it. No Climate Control and when the humidity is up here in Texas with large temp swings even the underside of my carport drips... just the price to pay to stay out of the Northern Snow Drifts:-)
-
Question, this kit came with a VM-W-0 tip. Trying to adjust to a neutral flame, the flame is a narrow cone, quiet, not positive about the color (i'm colorblind) and close to 12" long. Is that normal? Seems like a long flame. Does a 00 tip produce less flame length and would that be easier for me to learn with? Also, I seem to be getting a lot of slag. I'm not sure where those chucks of metal in the pic came from but it was from me welding.
2 years ago yesterday I made a post about how to set the max and min flame for the tip size. (http://www.eaglersnest.com/forum/index.php/topic,241.msg1225.html#msg1225)
At the bottom of that post is a you tube, but it was just to show the inner cone has a fuzzy look to it. The guy welding in it is working with some pretty thick solid round stock, and the total flame length looks about 6 or 7 inches long..
The information I posted about how to set the torch supersedes any gauge pressure numbers you will see in any manual as far as I am concerned. But your manual has a tip chart (pg. 10) (http://manuals.harborfreight.com/manuals/98000-98999/98958.pdf) that says you should be able to turn that thing down enough to weld .035... If it pops you will have to go down to double or triple aught. Pretty sure you have a Victor tip. (http://www.amazon.com/Welding-Brazing-Nozzle-Victor-Handles/dp/B008C8DJLY)
The RG 45 will throw some sparks, it is basically pure iron (no carbon). I read that RG 60 has some manganese for a de-oxidizer, but will still spark some. They all spark some... I think your biggest problem with the RG 45 is it is 3/32. Basically 3 times thicker than your tube.
The slag may be from an oxidizing flame or it could be coming from some of the burnt (oxidized) area you welded over from yesterday.
You may want to take the RG45 back and get 1/16" RG60 if they have it. Other wise save it for something thicker.
-
I hope I'm not boring everyone. This OA welding is very new territory for me. I think I'm getting the hang of it though. 3rd welding attempt pic below. Regarding the flame, You can see in the pic the flame goes out almost 13". I'm not sure if it matters, just wondering if that's normal. I think I had it set pretty much neutral. There is one thing I can't seem to be able to do when starting the torch. I followed the instructions below Dan, got a nice no carbon Acetylene flame going then with the Oxygen torch valve open 3-4 turns I started slowly opening the Oxygen regulator and as soon as Oxy starts flowing it puts my flame right out ever time. The only way I can introduce Oxy is to open the regulator with the torch valve closed then slowly open the torch valve. Any thoughts?
Also, I think the 1/16" rod is plenty. I bent the end at a 45 this time which actually helped. Oh, and I thoroughly cleaned the tubes Hugh. Less sparks, no slag....good stuff! I did order a 00 tip though to try as well. Should be in next week.
BTW-Thanks for all the info. Really helpful!
-
Yep, your getting the hang of it - A little next step planning may be in order at this time.... I cleaned my tubing in the amounts I was planning to weld at each setting, One day might have been two or 3 - 20 foot sticks, next time it may have been 3 feet to build the rudder pedals - Why am I saying this... once your oily junk is removed, plus the mill scale, this tubing is now open for rusting. In fact, you may experience some 'Flash' rusting within minutes of removing the torch from the weld. All normal stuff - So, while you are continuing to practice up for your first true fuselage weld ups, start thinking about what kind of Primer Coat you want to use, just about any primer should be good. I am sure there are good recommendation out there. I found it worked for me to plan a cleanup of welds by wire brush or wheel on a drill as part of my End of Day time block. Then the next day or two when I went out, the last welds were 'inspected' with a fresh eye, touched up with the torch if needed, then hit the welds with the brush, pass some steel wool over the tubing between the welds, wipe off with shop rags and apply a light primer coat to beat back the rust. Understand that you WILL miss welding areas as your going along, you WILL find open fitments where the tubes mate up and not understand how you missed it. That was my reason for the 'Fresh Eye' look-over between sessions. It just happens, and you will catch them so just be patient and vigilant. Sorry if this seems like simple stuff, it is just things I found out on my on as I went into this ... If you really want something to think about, consider this. The first part of the fuse recommended to be put together is the station frames... Sta#1 then Sta#2 and so on... so now that I have finished my plane, I look back and realize the first part I welded was as recommended - Sta#1 - cool, the part that HOLDS the ENGINE ON - Yeah go figure, but everything is set and tuned to those stations, make them good and square... My point - hundreds have done it, you will too - just take your time with the welding, weld each weld with the idea that it is holding your butt up in the air - no rush - no time limit is the way to go.
-
Regarding the flame, You can see in the pic the flame goes out almost 13".
It looks long, but... I loaned my equipment out 3 or 4 years ago so can't go out to compare. I never noticed how long the flame was...
I would consider it normal if:
- You lit the torch and screwed the acetylene regulator in until the flame left the tip, then turned the regulator back out until the flame just touched the tip again with the torch valve opened all the way.
To know if you had the torch valve open all the way: As soon as the flame came back to the tip, open the torch valve some more to see if the flame changes. If it changes you dint have the valve open all they way.
And:
- You had the oxygen torch valve all the way open when you used the oxygen regulator to set the flame neutral.
This gave you the max heat you are going to get from that tip, and the regulators are set, so the length of the fire is what it is.
Now you need the lowest setting...
- Close the torch oxygen valve.
- turn down the torch acetylene valve until it smokes.
- turn up the torch acetylene until it don't smoke.
- set the flame back to neutral with the torch oxygen valve.
I would not worry about it going out when you crank the oxygen regulator... That could just be the coarseness on that particular regulator adjusting screw... Just be sure you set the max heat with the regulators and the torch is wide open...
-
That flame looks huge and like a lot more heat than you need. I think a smaller tip will help you a lot.
Looking at your weld, something you need to watch out for is the "cold weld". This is a weld lacking penetration. You can have a great bead but if it is only on top of the base metal and not fused in you will have no strength. One of the indicators for potential cold welds is the edge of the bead. Looking at the left side of your T the bead has a deep edge suggesting piled bead without penetration. Up at the top it is much flatter showing good penetration.
This is why cutting apart your weld or destructive testing can be a good learning tool too. Get in under the bead and see what lies beneath. That is where the true quality of a weld will be found.
-
oxyacytelene welding video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVv8a_FVIOU)
-
I have been trying to post this video all morning. It has some great information on how to oxyacytelene weld. I hope this helps.
-
Great video.. Thanks for sharing.
Scott J.
-
That was a very helpful vid. It didn't mention in my OA torch manual to only hand tighten the welding tip. Good to know. The other thing is my manual states closing the Oxygen valve first when done welding. This guy says to close the Acetylene first.
WWelding Shutdown Instructions
1.After work is complete,
ffirst close the Oxygen Torch
Vvalve clockwise,
tthen close the Acetylene Torch
Valve clockwise
-
I have been trying to post this video all morning. It has some great information on how to oxyacytelene weld. I hope this helps.
Excellent video...
Youtube and vimeo are working great... FB is hit or miss. Every time the forum software gets a mod to fix it, they seem to do something at FB to make it not work again...
To post a video, just paste the URL on its own line, and hit post. They will not show with the preview button, you just have to have faith and hit the post button.
If you don't like what you see, drag your mouse over it and copy to the clipboard. You can then delete your post and paste your text in a new one, without having to type it all again.
After a new member has 10 or so posts they will see a "modify" button. You use this to fix typos, spelling, grammar or add a thought you meant to say but forgot.
They are working on a "drafts" feature, so that a copy of your post will be available to you while you are working on it without having to utilize the clipboard.
-
Dan, I tried to post the URL several times this morning. After I would post it, I would click on the video to make sure it would work, but it would say this video is not available. I got my wife to try and it worked for her. Sorry, I am not very good with computers.