Eagler's Nest

Airframes => Single Seaters => XL => Topic started by: Sparetime on December 28, 2013, 10:49:43 AM

Title: Wing fuel tank
Post by: Sparetime on December 28, 2013, 10:49:43 AM

Is the wing tank listed here the one for the xl?
if it is, are the any modifications required?




[font='Segoe UI', 'Helvetica Neue', 'Liberation Sans', 'Nimbus Sans L', Arial, sans-serif]http://www.teammini-max.com/online-store[/font]


[font='Segoe UI', 'Helvetica Neue', 'Liberation Sans', 'Nimbus Sans L', Arial, sans-serif]Thanks,[/font]
[font='Segoe UI', 'Helvetica Neue', 'Liberation Sans', 'Nimbus Sans L', Arial, sans-serif]Jim[/font]

Title: Re: Wing fuel tank
Post by: Steve on December 28, 2013, 11:28:05 AM

If you look thru the store items there is a wing tank and a pic showing it in a wing bay - the dimensions are given - the shape shown - on the (Legal Eagle) the wing diagonal needs to be dropped down and gusseted to the spar cap faces for clearance aft...

Good link: Team online Store (http://www.teammini-max.com/online-store)

If you plan to enter the cab from the Left side then the tank should be in the right wing so the fuel line angling down does not encounter your head...

Title: Re: Wing fuel tank
Post by: CHARLES DEBOER on November 02, 2014, 09:33:09 PM

Quote from: Sparetime on December 28, 2013, 10:49:43 AM

Is the wing tank listed here the one for the xl? if it is, are the any modifications required? [font='Segoe UI', 'Helvetica Neue', 'Liberation Sans', 'Nimbus Sans L', Arial, sans-serif]http://www.teammini-max.com/online-store[/font] [font='Segoe UI', 'Helvetica Neue', 'Liberation Sans', 'Nimbus Sans L', Arial, sans-serif]Thanks,[/font] [font='Segoe UI', 'Helvetica Neue', 'Liberation Sans', 'Nimbus Sans L', Arial, sans-serif]Jim[/font]

Any help/ideas on how to support and constrain the Mini Max Wing Tank.  I lowered the drag brace and it fits perfectly into the wing bay. 

Title: Re: Wing fuel tank
Post by: Steve on November 02, 2014, 09:53:41 PM

Quote from: CHARLES DEBOER on November 02, 2014, 09:33:09 PM

Quote from: Sparetime on December 28, 2013, 10:49:43 AM

Is the wing tank listed here the one for the xl? if it is, are the any modifications required? [font='Segoe UI', 'Helvetica Neue', 'Liberation Sans', 'Nimbus Sans L', Arial, sans-serif]http://www.teammini-max.com/online-store[/font] [font='Segoe UI', 'Helvetica Neue', 'Liberation Sans', 'Nimbus Sans L', Arial, sans-serif]Thanks,[/font] [font='Segoe UI', 'Helvetica Neue', 'Liberation Sans', 'Nimbus Sans L', Arial, sans-serif]Jim[/font]

Any help/ideas on how to support and constrain the Mini Max Wing Tank. I lowered the drag brace and it fits perfectly into the wing bay.

Go over to Photos in the yahoo group and look at the album titled "LE TX Bob Severance" with 79 pics in it - the detail is there...

Title: Re: Wing fuel tank
Post by: CHARLES DEBOER on November 02, 2014, 09:57:58 PM

Thanks Steve.

Title: Re: Wing fuel tank
Post by: Steve on November 03, 2014, 02:47:16 PM

Quote from: CHARLES DEBOER on November 02, 2014, 09:57:58 PM

Thanks Steve.

I put Bob's photos on the yahoo group Pinboard...

Title: Re: Wing fuel tank
Post by: Steve on November 04, 2014, 04:59:19 PM

Quote from: Steve on November 03, 2014, 02:47:16 PM

Quote from: CHARLES DEBOER on November 02, 2014, 09:57:58 PM

Thanks Steve.

I put Bob's photos on the yahoo group Pinboard...

The Pinboard has disappeared from the yahoo group and working admin controls of same - per usual dead silence from yahoo wiz kids - hope they bring it back as it was a good tool - the yahoo group searches and file handing procedures change or act differently almost daily - it's nearly Facebook...

Title: Re: Wing fuel tank
Post by: CHARLES DEBOER on November 04, 2014, 10:32:11 PM

Quote from: Steve on November 04, 2014, 04:59:19 PM

Quote from: Steve on November 03, 2014, 02:47:16 PM

Quote from: CHARLES DEBOER on November 02, 2014, 09:57:58 PM

Thanks Steve.

I put Bob's photos on the yahoo group Pinboard...

The Pinboard has disappeared from the yahoo group and working admin controls of same - per usual dead silence from yahoo wiz kids - hope they bring it back as it was a good tool - the yahoo group searches and file handing procedures change or act differently almost daily - it's nearly Facebook...

I did get a good look at the pinboard before it went down.  Thanks Steve.

Title: Re: Wing fuel tank
Post by: Bob S. on November 06, 2014, 10:18:16 AM

I was wondering how come all those pictures got pinned... I still see them all!

Title: Re: Wing fuel tank
Post by: CHARLES DEBOER on November 06, 2014, 08:39:03 PM

Bob, Steve was trying to help me with my question on how to best install a tank which I purchased that was originally for a Mini Max wing.

Title: Re: Wing fuel tank
Post by: Bob S. on November 06, 2014, 09:14:48 PM

That's good Charles. I hope you see that I doubled the diagonal where it was under the tank and put another support outboard from two 1/4 x 3/4 epoxied together to make a T. I put thick felt on all contact points so the wood did not touch the tank anywhere. The fuel pickup is in the rear corner. I have to be careful to never run the tank less than about 1/4 or risk exposing the pickup tube. especially in any nose down attitudes (landing?) There is no way to put a sump in the tank. Since I am running a pump, my fuel line is NOT as it should be for gravity feed...although with any siphon it draws ok...
If you have any questions, you can IM/email me directly if you want...

Title: Re: Wing fuel tank
Post by: CHARLES DEBOER on December 03, 2014, 09:09:24 AM

Quote from: Steve on December 28, 2013, 11:28:05 AM

If you look thru the store items there is a wing tank and a pic showing it in a wing bay - the dimensions are given - the shape shown - on the (Legal Eagle) the wing diagonal needs to be dropped down and gusseted to the spar cap faces for clearance aft...

Good link: Team online Store (http://www.teammini-max.com/online-store)

If you plan to enter the cab from the Left side then the tank should be in the right wing so the fuel line angling down does not encounter your head...S

Steve, If I drop the wing diagonal down I won't be able to bolt it to the wing attach fitting on page # 36 also described on page #38 detail.  Is there any special reinforcement needed for that diagonal other  than what is described on page # 37B after dropping it down to the bottom spar cap?  Should I leave out the steel fitting described on page #38?  I don't want to drill through the spar cap.

Title: Re: Wing fuel tank
Post by: Steve on December 03, 2014, 11:08:53 AM

Quote from: CHARLES DEBOER on December 03, 2014, 09:09:24 AM

Quote from: Steve on December 28, 2013, 11:28:05 AM

If you look thru the store items there is a wing tank and a pic showing it in a wing bay - the dimensions are given - the shape shown - on the (Legal Eagle) the wing diagonal needs to be dropped down and gusseted to the spar cap faces for clearance aft...

Good link: Team online Store (http://www.teammini-max.com/online-store)

If you plan to enter the cab from the Left side then the tank should be in the right wing so the fuel line angling down does not encounter your head...S

Steve, If I drop the wing diagonal down I won't be able to bolt it to the wing attach fitting on page # 36 also described on page #38 detail.  Is there any special reinforcement needed for that diagonal other  than what is described on page # 37B after dropping it down to the bottom spar cap?  Should I leave out the steel fitting described on page #38?  I don't want to drill through the spar cap.

Charles:
The metal fitting on sheet 38 will not be used if you drop the diagonal down into the face of the bottom spar cap strips... The diagonal will need  1/8" plywood gussets top and bottom sized to handle the load of the tank and the racking forces in the root wing bay...
Steve

Title: Re: Wing fuel tank
Post by: CHARLES DEBOER on December 18, 2014, 09:26:14 PM

How do you keep material from falling into the MimiMax tank while drilling the hole for the fuel line fitting?

Second question: has anyone weighed their fiberglass fuel tank?  I know I am adding weight with the mimimax tank at 6.6 pounds.  Just wanted to find out how much.  Been doing really well so far.  Haven't deviated from the XL plans except for a .020 thick turtle deck over the foot well between station #1 and #2.

Title: Re: Wing fuel tank
Post by: CHARLES DEBOER on January 08, 2015, 09:11:10 PM

Had to expand the wing bay by one inch.  It fits perfectly but tank will expand once filled.  needed extra room for expansion.  I removed the rib portion between the front and rear spar and install another rib one inch further outboard from the original rib by using one of the extras I made during the rib build process.  Replaced the cut out portion rib with another extra rib and covered them both with .8 ply top and bottom just like the #1 & 2 ribs inboard at the wing attach fittings and used .8 ply webbing on the intercostals of the rib for more strength. (for side loads in those tight turns ...)  Made a tray out of 1/16 th inch ply and drilled lightening holes, added  two extra drag braces.  See pictures below.

Title: Re: Wing fuel tank
Post by: CHARLES DEBOER on January 08, 2015, 10:01:22 PM

couple more pics.

Title: Re: Wing fuel tank
Post by: Bob S. on January 09, 2015, 08:32:38 AM

Looks plenty sturdy! You will be surprised that the tank will NOT expand more than 1/8" when filled!That is a very sturdy tank!! Put some felt pads between the tank and any wood that touches to keep from abrasion on the wood! And clamp it down so it doesn't move fore-aft and side to side!

Title: Re: Wing fuel tank
Post by: CHARLES DEBOER on January 09, 2015, 10:11:21 PM

Thanks.  Here is a shot of how I anchored it down.  You can't see it very well but I do have some padding under the tank and all of the contact points of the hold downs and the sides.

Title: Re: Wing fuel tank
Post by: CHARLES DEBOER on February 05, 2015, 06:37:52 AM

I FORGOT ABOUT A FUEL LEVEL GUAGE!!!  ANYONE HAVE SUGGESTIONS?  What are you guys using to check fuel level?

Title: Re: Wing fuel tank
Post by: Bob S. on February 05, 2015, 08:46:59 AM

I left the wing uncovered on the end and left the gap seal open on the bottom so I can see up thru the gap at the side of the tank. It is translucent enough that you can get a good idea how much fuel is in it. I eventually put a strip if thin plexi on the gap to discourage the mud-daubers from entry.

Title: Re: Wing fuel tank
Post by: leshoman on February 05, 2015, 01:26:36 PM

On my Legal Eagle Ultralight, yellow one, i installed a tee in line just after it leaves tank, used a clear fuel line and run it to end of wing and turned up into the center wing area above me then elbowed up and placed a vent above the center alum. covering.  I do not have the lower section covered between front wing mounting and rear wing mounting.  It is easy to see, if you wanted to cover the center area a piece of thing plexiglass or polycarbonate could be used so it can be seen thru.

Title: Re: Wing fuel tank
Post by: CHARLES DEBOER on September 23, 2015, 09:31:15 PM

Anyone see if I have created a problem for myself with this version of Les Holman's suggestion?  I kept the sight gage of clear gas line inside the wing and ran off a tee at the rear of the wing forward and up between ribs #1 & 2 through the top of the wing.  The gas cap has a built in vent that prevents a vacuum from being created inside the tank.  (see attached photos)  I have a piece of lexan to cover the opening which will allow me to see the fuel level and is removable incase I need to replace the fuel line.  I'll have to use lexan for the bottom wing gap cover also.

Title: Re: Wing fuel tank
Post by: Tom H on September 24, 2015, 06:23:13 AM

Charles, it looks like the clear tube that goes vertical through the top of the wing is plugged.  If you want to use it as a fuel level indicator, the top of that tube will have to be vented to indicate accurately.

Title: Re: Wing fuel tank
Post by: CHARLES DEBOER on September 24, 2015, 08:33:06 AM

Yes, it is plugged with a screw temporarily to keep bugs out.  I'll have to put one of those remove before flight tags on it.
Other than that would you have any more tips?
How far does the fuel line need to drop while traversing the cabin area?

Title: Re: Wing fuel tank
Post by: Dan_ on September 24, 2015, 01:44:52 PM

Quote from: CHARLES DEBOER on September 24, 2015, 08:33:06 AM

Yes, it is plugged with a screw temporarily to keep bugs out.  I'll have to put one of those remove before flight tags on it.
Other than that would you have any more tips?

Charles,
You will perhaps want to plumb that line back to the filler neck, or somewhere near the top of the tank.  

If you just unplug it each time and leave it sticking up like it is now,  your fuel will be at risk for being pumped overboard by the pressure in the tank.  Possibly by siphoning as well...

Someone else will surely chime in on the necessary drop for the main fuel line.

Title: Re: Wing fuel tank
Post by: CHARLES DEBOER on September 24, 2015, 04:11:06 PM

You will perhaps want to plumb that line back to the filler neck, or somewhere near the top of the tank. If you just unplug it each time and leave it sticking up like it is now, your fuel will be at risk for being pumped overboard by the pressure in the tank. Possibly by siphoning as well...Someone else will surely chime in on the necessary drop for the main fuel line.

Do you mean drill a hole into the filler neck?  Where would the pressure come from?

I had guessed that there might be siphoning.  That was my reason for posting to get some feed back and a solution.  With a roto-molded tank the only way to create a return to the tank would be to drill a hole near the top of the tank.  Possibly just leave it inside the wing without a return to the tank?  Might that work?

Title: Re: Wing fuel tank
Post by: leshoman on September 24, 2015, 05:00:02 PM

Charles. If you are going to be on rio vista Saturday you can take a look at how I did it on the yellow one. I am flying it up tomorrow

Title: Re: Wing fuel tank
Post by: Dan_ on September 24, 2015, 06:01:31 PM

Quote from: CHARLES DEBOER on September 24, 2015, 04:11:06 PM

Do you mean drill a hole into the filler neck?  Where would the pressure come from?
Possibly just leave it inside the wing without a return to the tank?  Might that work?

Unless the plans have changed since I have seen them,  the tank is designed to have a vent in the cap that faces forward to pressurize the tank via the slipstream.

Yes drill the neck and install a barbed fitting.  Else drill the top of the tank and install the same.

Quicksilvers have rotomolded tanks with this type of self sealing fitting, and they are available in 90 degree...

With pressure in the tank you would not want that line just hanging out inside the wing.

Without pressure in the tank, that line drop distance is going to be that much more critical...

Les will get you "plumbed-up" at the fly-in...;)

Title: Re: Wing fuel tank
Post by: Bob S. on September 24, 2015, 08:48:21 PM

I would suggest you keep the open end of your 'guage tube' below the surface of the wing (inside) or the slipstream of air over the wing will siphon fuel out!  It would be best if you return it to the top of the tank...

Title: Re: Wing fuel tank
Post by: Dan_ on September 24, 2015, 08:49:27 PM

Quote from: Dan_ on September 24, 2015, 06:01:31 PM

Quote from: CHARLES DEBOER on September 24, 2015, 04:11:06 PM

Do you mean drill a hole into the filler neck?  Where would the pressure come from?
Possibly just leave it inside the wing without a return to the tank?  Might that work?

Unless the plans have changed since I have seen them,  the tank is designed to have a vent in the cap that faces forward to pressurize the tank via the slipstream.

Attached is a Tony Bingelis article...

Title: Re: Wing fuel tank
Post by: CHARLES DEBOER on September 24, 2015, 08:51:48 PM

Quote from: leshoman on September 24, 2015, 05:00:02 PM

Charles. If you are going to be on rio vista Saturday you can take a look at how I did it on the yellow one. I am flying it up tomorrow

Yes, Les I will be there tomorrow and Saturday.  Thanks

Title: Re: Wing fuel tank
Post by: Tom H on September 25, 2015, 06:15:33 AM

Charles, several have suggested that the top, open end of the clear tube be connected into the top of the tank, or into the side of the filler neck.  That is important to keep the top of the fuel indicator line and the vapor area at the top of the tank at the same pressure.  Per the plans, the filler cap has a small, open tube that faces into the slip stream.  When flying, this causes the pressure in the tank to be a bit higher than atmospheric pressure.  If the top end of the fuel level tube is connected to the top vapor space of the tank, it will indicate accurately.  If it is simply left open in a space at atmospheric pressure, the higher tank pressure may push fuel through the tube and out the top.  It will not indicate accurately, and possibly be a safety issue.

I've seen fittings made for the plastic tanks that use some type of rubber grommet to seal penetration of the tank.  That would work well, especially if you are connecting into the vapor space of the tank.

As far as the slope of the fuel line from the outlet of the tank, I made DE Stubby's lines to be running downhill (and also on our LEU Treehugger, RIP), even when at a climb angle.  Other routings may work, but I don't think you can go wrong by sloping them down towards the engine.

Hope this clarifies.

Title: Re: Wing fuel tank
Post by: scottiniowa on September 25, 2015, 08:16:44 AM

Quote from: Dan_ on September 24, 2015, 08:49:27 PM

Quote from: Dan_ on September 24, 2015, 06:01:31 PM

Quote from: CHARLES DEBOER on September 24, 2015, 04:11:06 PM

 
Possibly just leave it inside the wing without a return to the tank?  Might that work?

It is NEVER a good idea - to have open line from fuel tank to somewhere in the wing. All the details have been covered pretty good. Just wanted to hi-lite this one. While we don't have composites in the wing, we do have things that might be of concern. "glued joints"   If you have ever smelled gas, EVER, you know this came from fumes. Gas does that... and if you vented into your wing, you are carrying them around with you...or having them in your wings, in your hanger.

Title: Re: Wing fuel tank
Post by: CHARLES DEBOER on September 27, 2015, 10:33:31 AM

THANKS EVERYONE.  THIS A GREAT GROUP AND A WONDERFUL SOURCE OF INFORMATION.