Eagler's Nest
Engines => 2 Cylinder => 1/2 vw => Topic started by: Mark Kramer on March 09, 2020, 05:19:39 AM
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Hey guys,
The leburg ignition system seems to be not available anymore. At least I cannot find access to it. Does anyone know if one of these systems could be accessed somewhere? Or is there another electronic ignition system out there?
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Or is there another electronic ignition system out there?
5 that I know of...
You can put a pertronix (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&channel=cus2&sxsrf=ALeKk02u1tOqAh0oEUIbdhq9gig3cbFKoA%3A1583769530733&ei=umdmXqK3LJSHytMP4qujuAI&q=vw+pertronix+electronic+ignition&oq=pertronix+vw+electronic+ignition&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0i8i30l6.40943.51803..58153...4.2..0.180.1852.2j14......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j0i7i30j0i13j0j0i8i7i30j0i8i13i30.8iS4GBvkT-M) in the stock distributor and take 2 magnets out of the pickup rotor.
You can go with a RC ignition or build the other one here: https://www.eaglersnest.com/forum/index.php?topic=1703.0 (https://www.eaglersnest.com/forum/index.php?topic=1703.0)
You can go ultra cheap and copy one the 2 ignitions the NorCal guy's (Norm) came up with. See pics and attachments below.
It starts on the zero advance crank sensor and runs on the other, thus the switches in the pic.
Maybe Steve or Les will comment on it. My recollection is that it would idle down to 400 rpm.
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Hi Dan,
This is so awesome. I now have some direction. I have a Mosler CB 40 I’m planning on using. Since it doesn’t have a distributor or a place to put one, I am committed to using the rear end of the crank. Right now it has a Fairbanks Morse mag, and runs quite well. The idea of a light weight, reliable, and maintenance free ignition system really intrigues me.
I am very interested in the simple set up with eBay parts. I also have heard of this guy somewhere in Europe, I think named Dirk something. He supposedly has a system using Arduino, I think. Ever heard of him?
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Oh, by the way. What does it mean, the CDI will fire two plugs if “hooded”? What does hooded mean? Referring to the chinese scooter set up
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Oh, by the way. What does it mean, the CDI will fire two plugs if “hooded”? What does hooded mean? Referring to the chinese scooter set up
Change the H to an N and it becomes "needed"...
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Oh, duh, thanks
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Oh, duh, thanks
It's all good bro, we're all in this together...
(https://media.giphy.com/media/L29fiOMSDhhvi/giphy.gif)
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I have corresponded with Dirk about his Arduino based ignition. He has one video showing an engine running. He told me he would not sell the ignition until it had been thoroughly tested, but the project died when the engine owners decided not to proceed.
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Oh well,
No worries. I’m actually kinda interested in building one of the above systems. The engine is going to be the final frontier of this project. Right now I just mounted the wings and am trying to figure out whether or not wash out is really necessary. I already skinned The leading edge, and the wing doesn’t want to twist.
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I have the same engine - Mosler CB 40 with the Mag - is that considered unreliable? I thought it was a good setup - it does seem to run fine right now. Anyway, I am interested in any solution that improves reliability! To tell the truth I am not really understanding the solutions presented here yet but partly due to my not having done any extensive research.
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Hi,
Don’t get me wrong, magnetos have been on aircraft engines for a long time. Very successfully I might add. And you don’t need an outside power source. I trust technology and am always looking for a newer and possibly better way. Light weight and no maintenance seems worth looking into. I’m no expert, but that engine in the photo looks a lot like a cut case VW.
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Mags are reliable if maintained. The problem with mags are getting the parts to keep up the maintenance...
G.A. standard is "inspection" every 500 hours. https://www.cessnaflyer.org/maintenance-tech/item/1314-magneto-maintenance-101.html (https://www.cessnaflyer.org/maintenance-tech/item/1314-magneto-maintenance-101.html)
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Hi everyone. I just joined the site and just now read this thread. I would be interested in more infomation on the system noted by "Dan" as a replacement for the Leburg system. Does anyone have information for contacting whoever came up with the system drawn. I noted the reference to NorCal legal eagle people but was not able to come up with a name or information on the system.
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The RC ignition mentioned in the video at 2min 32sec (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtGweDOUk2w) is sold by RC airplane companies like Desert Aircraft, CH Ignitions, and RCEXL Ignitions. I have an RCEXL, twin cylinder unit purchased from ZY Hobby (China). The video unit was Desert Aircraft. I also built the GM module ignition that uses two pickups, one for Start (2° ATDC) and one for Run (28° BTDC). It puts out a very hot spark with a Honda Valkyrie or Buick V6 coil. This system uses the hand drawn schematic that Dan posted earlier. I made a pickup mount that bolts to the front of the 1/2 VW case and the pickup is triggered by a longer prop bolt passing by.
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Hi everyone. I just joined the site and just now read this thread. I would be interested in more infomation on the system noted by "Dan" as a replacement for the Leburg system. Does anyone have information for contacting whoever came up with the system drawn. I noted the reference to NorCal legal eagle people but was not able to come up with a name or information on the system.
Norm Heistand is your contact. He is a member here but has not been active for a few years. You may want to try a PM (https://www.eaglersnest.com/forum/index.php?action=pm;sa=send;u=116) to him.
He is also a member at Homebuilt Airplanes forum (https://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/members/nheistand.9481/#recent-content). I dunno if they have PMs there...
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Thanks guys, your posts cleared things up for me. I read Norms post on HBA as well.
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Skycraft in the UK is carrying on the Leburg ignition, but it's a bit spendy. http://skycraft.ltd/acatalog/Leburg-Dual-Ignition-Kit-for-VW-Aero-LEBURGDKIT.html
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I did see that site. They also have a single ignition. Just for grins I did the pound to dollar conversion on the dual ignition, $1043, plus shipping!
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Hi Kamcoman
I am also very interested in the gm parts ignition system using the hand drawings that Dan posted. When looking on eBay the part numbers listed on the drawing don’t exactly match numbers of parts on eBay. Was wondering if you would post the numbers of all the parts you used? Also why did you use two different sensor units for start and run. Another issue for me is my Mosler case is different in the front than a v-dub, and I’m not sure if I would have the room to mount the sensors. I think a better way in my case might be to remove the Fairbanks/Morse mag and go off the crank. The problem there is that there are no threaded holes in the crank end to bolt on a disc for sensor bolts or magnets. Any ideas?
Thanks Mark
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The reason I used different sensors for the Run & Start was simply because I had one of each lying around. The GM sensor (AC Delco #24203876) sensor puts out more voltage (7.5v - 9.5v) than the Ford ABS, so using two of the GM is probably the best way to go. I used a generic 4-pin GM module and also tried a Proform 66944c high output module. Couldn't see any difference in the spark. To trigger the sensor, you use a bolt, or other piece of steel/iron, don't need a magnet. The sensor has a magnet in it and generates a voltage as a metallic object passes it. Gap of about 0.030" between sensor and trigger bolt seems to work best on my test setup.
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Here is a screenshot from a short video of my GM module, 4L80E pickup sensor, Buick V6 coil, and NGK BR8HS plugs (gapped 0.035") test bench setup. The disc that triggers the pickup is just a bolt in cardboard. The disc speed was about 3,000 rpm. I was using 12-volts from a 6-cell 18650 li-ion battery pack. Sorry I could not load the video but it is in MP4 format and I think it has to be in MOV format to post here. The spark was quite intense.
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Thanks so much! I’ve had my mag off several times, but never really looked at the crank end. It has a notch across the end, but no bolt holes I don’t think. Would love to just bolt on a disc and go from there. Think I will see if I can find these parts and go from there. I really want to replace my mag with electronic ignition. I would fly it with the mag, but cannot find a runway with an available hanger! Checked everything for 50 mile radius. All dressed up and no place to go. Joining the closet EAA chapter, maybe they will know a place.
Thanks again
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Hey Kamcoman
I have a couple more questions maybe you could help me with. Electrical stuff is not my thing. Plug wires, in my mind should be the solid copper wire type, not the carbon suppression type. What did you use? On my eBay list they wanted 30 bucks for two wires, and they were the only item that wasn’t free shipping, 35 bucks for that. Gonna source them elsewhere. Want them to plug right onto that Buick coil. Also what awg size wiring should I use to connect all this stuff and the switch? Wonder if the switch should be an aircraft grade switch? Again electrical is not my forte,and would appreciate any help I can get.
Thanks again
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Also, after my last post I was looking on line about the DM1906 hei 4 pin unit and it said that it needs 7 volts min and would function best with 12-14.5 volts. I wonder if there is a sensor that would output 12 volts?
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I am using a flying magnet. Bosch TK139 ignition module with two ZF MP 100701 Hall sensors. The magnet is 3/16 dia. mounted in a aluminum holder screwed on the end of a prop bolt. The sensors are only an inch long which helps with clearance issues. They also switch at zero speed, unlike magnetic sensors which do not, their output is proportional to speed, Easier starting with a hall sensor and less susceptible to noise.
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Mark,
The 12+ volts for the GM module probably refers to the working voltage of the power supply, not the pickup. My Ford ABS sensor only put out 4.5v to 6v and the spark I got looked just like the higher output 4L80E sensor. I used MSD racing wires on my test setup. They are solid wires wrapped in a very tight spiral configuration for noise suppression. Summit Racing may sell this wire by the foot and a pack of ends; you might want to check their website. Wayne Munich's setup may be the way to go for you, since some hall sensors can be very small and use a small magnet to trigger. I can't remember if I tried the hall sensor pickup with my GM 4-pin module, but it should work (see diagram). Aircraft switches will probably be safest and aircraft wire. I'm using 16ga wire for my switch to sensor, sensor to module, module to coil, and battery to system.
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Ok, a lot to digest. Firstly my engine is a Mosler, so there is no distributor hole. Mag attach on the back only. My brain says electronic ignition with no moving parts over a 30 something year old magneto. Hence me picking you guys brains. Now I talked to Scott C. Today and comparing the two systems all he would say was that a magneto almost always will give you a warning before complete failure. Electronic ignition most likely will give no warning. If I had access to a runway and a hanger, it’s a no brainer, I’d fly the mag and design a electronic system later. Unfortunately all I have is time, and I think too much.
Back to the electronic systems at hand, and remember I’m not too bright in this arena. As far as Wayne’s system, I could not find a Bosch tk139 on line. Kamcoman, on your schematic are you showing only one hall sensor? And is that a resistor or some kind of electrical check valve in the middle of the drawing? I’m assuming there would be two hall sensors and a switch to select start or run. I also like Wayne’s set up, but I think there is more there that I don’t understand. No selector switch there? Is there programming involved?
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The schematic is one I copied from the internet just to show a 4-pin module can be triggered by a hall sensor. The 1 K ohm block is a 1 kilo-ohm (1000 ohm) resistor. Since hall sensors have the three wires, ground, signal, and power, to hook up two sensors you would probably hook the ground from both sensors together at the module, the two signal wires together at the module (with a diode in each wire to prevent signal backflow), and run the power wires to the Run/Start switches. Probably should show both circuit drawings to an electronics knowledgeable buddy to get the wire routing and resistor wattage correct. Don't know what you mean about programming; there is none on the circuits I posted. Perhaps Wayne's? If you are interested in a programmable, computer controlled ignition that only needs one pickup sensor, there is a system you can purchase from Transmic.net (https://transmic.net/2019/08/21/dc-cdi-v7/) that allows you to program a spark advance curve to suit your desire. Does not come programmed with a spark advance curve that will work for us (hand propping). I have one that I will use on my engine test stand during break-in to see how it works. It puts out a nice, hot spark on my workbench. I had to buy a Pickit programmer to program a spark curve in the computer chip (lots of new learning for me).
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Yes I am using a selector switch for start and run. The sensors are fixed at 28 degrees apart on the four inch arc. The Bosch module can handle 6 amps so a 5 ohm coil is used to preclude the need of a ballast resister. Like all the modules, a heat sink is required.
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As far as the programmable, yes I was referring to Wayne’s set up. Told you I am dumb about this stuff. I would prefer the simplicity of a two switch system, and nothing that needs programming or diodes and resistors. So I’m back to the simple gm set up. Scott assured me that there is a bolt on adapter in between the crank end and the mag. Should be able to bolt on a disc right to the crank, maybe some more spacing behind it to clear the crank case. Go from there with some sensors.
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Sounds like you can screw a thin aluminum disc with pickup bolt/nut to the back of the mag adapter and make a sensor mounting plate that you can bolt to the case. My sensor plate mounts the Start sensor at 2 degrees after top dead center so a kickback is nearly impossible. The Run sensor is at 28 degrees before top dead center since my research says 28° BTDC is the best setting for the 1/2 VW. Show us a photo of the back of the engine with the mag removed.
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Will do. However my prop is due back from Frank today and I’m dying to run it and check rpms and thrust at WOT. Provided I’m happy with those numbers, I’ll pull the mag and we can brainstorm a set up. Thanks for all the patience with my slowness to understand things .
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Mark, I like the idea of the two switches and two 4L80E magnetic pickup sensors (bolt triggered) with no diodes, no programming, no resistors, etc. This seems to be the system with the simplest setup. Once you have a bracket that can hold the pickup sensors in the correct position, running the wiring is very straightforward. I have run my two-pickup test setup firing a Honda motorcycle coil and also the Buick V6 coil. Both gave very hot sparks and drew less than 1/2 amp at 1,000 rpm and 1.1 amp at 3,000 rpm. I did not run my test at a higher rpm. When I get my 1/2 VW built and running, I will have higher rpm data. With my homemade battery pack of 6.8 amp hour capacity, I will have more than 4-hours of run time at full throttle. I will also have an air driven charging system that I can switch on any time during flight to bring the battery back to full charge, if needed.
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I definitely like simple and easy. My next hurdle is to master welding aluminum so I can make the bracket. I used a tig welder for the fuselage which was super easy to get beautiful welds. Aluminum is another story. I think I need a larger tip and a little knowledge on how to set up the welder. I wonder what diameter the aluminum disc should be? I’m thinking 4.5 in with the bolt at 4in. Plus if you put a 1/4 in. bolt on one side of the wheel, seems like you would have to balance it somehow. Oh, one other thing, Wayne said all modules need a heat sink. Does that mean mounting the HEI on a finned aluminum kind of thing? I wish I had better knowledge of the dependability and longevity of this system. If I lived and flew somewhere with lots of empty fields around the airport, I wouldn’t worry so much. Here in Maine, large fields don’t exist, and an engine out away from the runway would be very bad. I fantasize about living somewhere warm with my own grass runway surrounded by sod farms.
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The module does need to be mounted on some type of heat sink. If you look at my bench test setup in Post #13, you will see the module is mounted on a 1/4" thick aluminum plate. Although I have not run the system for over 10 minutes at any one time, the module never even got warm, much less the plate. Your aluminum disc diameter needs to be large enough so the trigger bolt is in the same arc as the sensors. The sensors need to be mounted in such a way that they can be 28° or 30° apart. I had to use a 4-1/2" circle for my sensors because the rear of the sensors would not allow closer positioning for a smaller circle. For balance you could use two bolts (same size), installed in your disc 180° apart, with the long end of the bolts reversed so only one long end passes the sensors.
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Got it. Can’t wait to start fabricating parts, helping my stepson on his house for a few days now. Like it or not there is life beyond airplanes. I talked to a welder guy and bought some new tip parts for the tig. Hoping to make a nice bolt on mag replacement set up for the back of the engine.
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Kamcoman77.
I've followed your posts on this subject and have been working on a system for my installation. A question. I've been having trouble coming up with terminal "blades" to fit inside the coil pack. Do you remember what you may have used on your set-up? Reference to reply #13 photo of your set-up.
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Lots of stuff going on in post #13, but I think you mean the connectors that fit into the base of the Buick coil. If so, I used standard male blade connectors that are usually available at any auto parts store. I just crimped them onto 16ga stranded wire with male connectors crimped on the other end and run to the module. I've been test running the engine with two 4L80E pickup sensors instead of the Ford ABS and one 4L80E. The 4L80E's put out a little hotter spark.
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Thank you sir. Right after I wrote this I found a site that showed a way to disable the computer in a Cavalier ignition module and use the pins for direct hookup to the crank sensors. I appreciate your help in this project.