Eagler's Nest
Airframes => Single Seaters => XL => Topic started by: Jlwright on February 06, 2014, 05:36:38 PM
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I am officially an XL builder as of today.
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good luck! I figure i will be about 3 weeks behind u I will be watching. bert
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I am officially an XL builder as of today.
Yes, Jim, you are indeed an Eagler!
However, I am a bit concerned about your shop----it appears you don't have much in the way of equipment, it looks like you have only the bare-bone essentials, hope you are able to make this project happen with the tiny little accommodations you are forced to work in...... :D
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Hey Sam. Yes I am truly gullible. How do you like my table setup. :-)
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Made some progress today. Tacked in the cross braces and diagonals. The Mecco torch is the bomb. Thanks Sam.
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Decided to try my luck at finish welding a sample similar to some of the fuselage welds. I do tig welding as part of my job but have never welded with a gas rig before. I have no doubt this weld is strong but I am used to doing precision work and gorilla welds are certainly not what I want all over my fuselage. This will be the biggest challenge of the whole project for me. I really love learning a new skill set. My father was a master welder using a acetylene torch. He learned the trade in the Navy and he thought nothing of brazing a huge cast iron casting back together. I've seen him weld a part so large that there were two helpers preheating with rosebud torches while he brazed. That one part took nearly 8 hours to finish. I was never interested in learning that aspect of welding when I was growing up as I thought it old fashioned and would be replaced with newer techniques. Now I can just kick myself for not learning while I had the chance. Dad never pushed the issue either. I think he wanted me to learn new skills that were not so much of a health hazard. Here are a couple of pictures of the before and after.
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but I am used to doing precision work and gorilla welds are certainly not what I want all over my fuselage.
While not tig welds, those welds are far from looking bad, in fact I would say well done for a few first try's at welding. And almost without out a doubt stronger than tig weld, and the tig welded clusters are plenty strong.
Scott -
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Nice work1
Gil
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Thanks for the encouragement. I am using a Mecco mini torch with a #1 tip. It seems to be a little small especially when welding the crotch areas. I have to go real slow in order to keep the heat up where it needs to be to get good penetration.
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Thanks for the encouragement. I am using a Mecco mini torch with a #1 tip. It seems to be a little small especially when welding the crotch areas. I have to go real slow in order to keep the heat up where it needs to be to get good penetration.
Jim, I started out as a complete novice at gas welding and had read a bunch about having a "quiet flame". I quickly found out when welding clusters I needed to turn up the gas until the little torch was roaring like a blow-torch (well...maybe not that much...). Don't hesitate to crank up the juice in order to get the heat you need. At first I couldn't control the torch enough to use a #2 tip but I think my #1 has now worn enough to where it is about a #2.
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on the big clusters i go to a Smith #5 that way we get plenty of heat and the quiet flame that Sam is talking about. on the smaller stuff I use a #3. i dunno what a Smith #5 would be in a Meco
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I have a #2 and #3 tip for the Mecco. I'll do some more experimenting. The quiet flame on a #1 tip just doesn't put out a lot of heat. It sure is nice working around those thin edges though. It would be nice if everyone used the same numbering size for their tips. A number whatever hole should be the same no matter what the brand.
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I have a #2 and #3 tip for the Mecco. I'll do some more experimenting. The quiet flame on a #1 tip just doesn't put out a lot of heat. Ibrand.
Here is how to decide when to go up or down in tip size... When you start building up a cluster you wind up with a lot bigger heat sink and may need a bigger tip...
I dint invent this, just passing it along.
With both bottles on, and regulator adjusting screws turned out (“off” position), turn the acetylene (Mecco) torch valve wide-open (3 half turns is usually enough). Then, turn your acetylene regulator adjusting screw in until gas starts to flow and light the torch. Continue to turn the adjusting screw in until the flame just blows away from the tip, then back off the screw until the flame just returns to the tip. Your acetylene pressure is now set for that tip.
Then , open the oxygen (Mecco) torch valve wide-open (3 half turns) and slowly begin to turn your oxygen regulator adjusting screw in until you you have a blue feather extending from a blue cone at the tip. Continue to add oxygen until the feather just disappears into the inner cone, giving you a neutral flame. You now have the torch set for maximum heat for that tip. (Wiggle both torch valves at this point to make sure you have them wide-open: if you do the flame will not change)
Finally, turn your oxygen torch valve off. Then, close your acetylene torch valve until the yellow flame starts to produce smoke, and immediately open it just so it is not smoking. Slowly open your oxygen torch valve until you again have a neutral flame , and you now have the minimum flame you can use on that tip without backfires.
This seems like a lot of trouble, but only takes a minute with practice and only needs to be done once unless tips or regulator settings are changed. Also, note that at no point are you depending on or even looking at regulator gauges, which can be very unreliable when abused. This method will work with all standard OA equipment for welding, and is called "balancing the gases".
Sorry it is not a regulator setting video, but you can see the nice blur on the inner cone here...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWJQudCiUes
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Thanks Dan for the information. I was doing it sort of right. I was using the regulators to set the torch but was turning on the acetylene until I got a feathering flame and not until the flame left the end of the tip. Thanks for your help.
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A little more progress. I decided to try bending the top longeron on the concrete floor and then adding it to the fuselage. I shot the laser through the hole in the box fixture to line up the top longeron with the tail post and the top. The little Ryobi laser is a great tool for this kind of thing. My line on the table lines up with the laser light and centered in the fuselage. It throws a horizontal line as well that you can raise or lower using a camera tripod. The laser also puts a line on the center of the sloped part of the top longeron to make it easy to keep plumb when adding the upright tubes. BTW,Bending the longeron was not my bright idea. Again, Thanks Sam it worked great.
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CAD, engineering analysis with angles and stuff, lasers.......man, the Eagle universe, it is a-changin'.....
Looks great, Jim!
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Congratulations Jim.. You will have a great time with the build.
I'll trade you shops. The set up looks good.
Scott J.
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Thanks Scott. The big tools are not much help in building an Eagle but having a warm place to build is priceless.
Having a Bridgeport and small lathe is really nice. Being able to work and also build an airplane at the same time is like getting free time. The best tools I have are the people on this forum that have already solved a lot of the everyday issues that can come up in building an Eagle.
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The best tools I have are the people on this forum that have already solved a lot of the everyday issues that can come up in building an Eagle.
Amen to that. Speaking of which: here is problem that a few of us are dealing with. The apparent unavailability of 7/8" x .062 tubing. I had a go at reaming the .065 out but I don't have a lathe and a drill and sandpaper is completely inefficient. Is it going to be a structural problem using 7/8" x .058? What did you do Jim?
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Another thread said .058 would be fine. I bought .065 and will have to ream it to size. I didn't get the memo in time.
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say guys why the 058 even? 035 will be fine in fact in my early proof XL plans on page 5 is a drawing of the fuse and it says at the bottom "all tube .035 4130". that may have been changed in a later revision...i don't know but i would be surprised if a later revision required other than .035. it's plenty adequate and the heavy wall is...well, heavy for no gain.
if a later revision required something other than .035 then i stand corrected.
if it was mine i would cut that heavy wall out and put a piece of 035 in there.
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say guys why the 058 even? 035 will be fine in fact in my early proof XL plans on page 5 is a drawing of the fuse and it says at the bottom "all tube .035 4130". that may have been changed in a later revision...i don't know but i would be surprised if a later revision required other than .035. it's plenty adequate and the heavy wall is...well, heavy for no gain.
if a later revision required something other than .035 then i stand corrected.
if it was mine i would cut that heavy wall out and put a piece of 035 in there.
XL-58 plans have the same 0.035" callout. All you need is a socket for the trailing edge of the vertical stab to slip into.
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Now I see where the confusion is. The drawing call out 3/4 or 7/8 as an option on DWG. 25. When I saw the short top 7/8 piece that is called out .062 i thought it meant the whole tail piece could be substituted with the 7/8 by .062. I should have stayed with the 3/4-.035 and added the 7/8 tube to the top and ignored the option of using 7/8 tube.
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I decided to try bending the top longeron on the concrete floor and then adding it to the fuselage.
I heard through the grapevine that Leonard does not approve of bending the top longeron to make it a one piece part. I was told he said it is critical that the tubes terminate in a central location and on a Double Eagle it would not pass inspection. I plan on welding all the other tubes right in the bend area which to me makes it a central location. I will add gussets to that area if there is a consensus it needs to be done. Maybe I screwed up.
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I decided to try bending the top longeron on the concrete floor and then adding it to the fuselage.
I heard through the grapevine that Leonard does not approve of bending the top longeron to make it a one piece part. I was told he said it is critical that the tubes terminate in a central location and on a Double Eagle it would not pass inspection. I plan on welding all the other tubes right in the bend area which to me makes it a central location. I will add gussets to that area if there is a consensus it needs to be done. Maybe I screwed up.
Jim, you should be fine. Take a close look at this photo:
(https://www.eaglersnest.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhome.hiwaay.net%2F%7Esbuc%2FlegaleagleXL%2Fdrift-8.jpg&hash=8bd27b26bd36135c179cbd90eb7a7ae47c96ea69)
Notice how the bent top longeron is tied into the other members so no bends are left "hanging".
Also notice the bends in the cabin cabanes. This is what you need to avoid. I messed up when bending them and got the bend with too large a radius and above where the longerons tie in. I added gussets to strengthen this area. My thinking was driven by the idea that it was stronger to have a one-piece cabane vs a welded one. But bends like I did need to be avoided.
Builders shouldn't copy everything they see on the internet. :)
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Builders shouldn't copy everything they see on the internet. :)
Now you tell me! :-)
I can tie everything together easily to make a strong cluster. I was going to try to bend the cabanes but maybe I'll just go ahead and cut and weld. It's pretty hard to tell exactly where you are going to end up when you make a bend.
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Sam's right those cabanes need to be cut and then a finger patch welded over the joint
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Builders shouldn't copy everything they see on the internet. :)
Now you tell me! :-)
I can tie everything together easily to make a strong cluster. I was going to try to bend the cabanes but maybe I'll just go ahead and cut and weld. It's pretty hard to tell exactly where you are going to end up when you make a bend.
Jim, one more thing I would do differently next time is add a longeron on one side of the cabin (right side in my case). There is no need to have both sides of the cabin open and the additional longeron would stiffen the cabin area. It would also give you something to prop your elbow on while cruising over the countryside. :)
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43.13 has a good section on tube structure repair approved methods. there are a lot of good illustrations. notice every illustration has a centerline axis drawn in on each tube and all those lines meet in the center of the cluster... i think it says in the text somewhere that all tubes should point at the center of the cluster. we can't bend the cabanes without violating that requirement.
that doesn't mean we can't get away with a little deviation. mine has a number of minor deviations and so far it's stayed together. but obviously when it's not in line it isn't a straight push/pull on the tube anymore and a bent tube wants to bend some more.
and that's all i know about that.
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43.13 has a good section on tube structure repair approved methods. there are a lot of good illustrations. notice every illustration has a centerline axis drawn in on each tube and all those lines meet in the center of the cluster... i think it says in the text somewhere that all tubes should point at the center of the cluster. we can't bend the cabanes without violating that requirement.
that doesn't mean we can't get away with a little deviation. mine has a number of minor deviations and so far it's stayed together. but obviously when it's not in line it isn't a straight push/pull on the tube anymore and a bent tube wants to bend some more.
and that's all i know about that.
Yep, that is the correct way to do it.
As the disclaimer states on my website (in so many words); a builder would be a fool to build their Eagle the same way I built mine.....the website is for entertainment purposes only......
But that doesn't seem to prevent people from cloning what they see on the internet....but this is a discussion for a different thread.
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As always, guys; sage advice. I believe I will avoid trying to ream out any tubing and just buy a little bit of .058 wall thickness stuff. No use in forcing a fit when an easy fit is available. I like easy. The decision to bend the upper longeron is a tougher choice. As this is my first welding project I have been doing my homework and dutifully welding up scrap tubing for practice. The tech advisor from my EAA group is coming over this Saturday to school me and to see if what I'm doing is adequate work. Even then; a newbe like me likes to visualize himself hanging from solid tubing, not a weld. I get that the weld and patch is more proper. In my mind's eye I see the bend in the tubing bending more under stress but sees the weld breaking apart. I should have more faith in myself I guess. My welds have held under the most severe hammer beatings and when cut apart are not cold welds. Rich.
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hi Rich
of course do what you want to about the tailpost but here are a couple more considerations...
Leonard to my knowledge hasn't undersized any fuse tubing and calls out 035 for that tailpost. from that and field experience that is all that is necessary. anything thicker is overkill and needless weight.
and when you go to fit up your vert stab to the tailpost and the front tube mount that it goes into you may wish you had a little slop in the tailpost. after finish welding the 2 tackwelded mounts may get a little misaligned and if you go .058 on the tailpost and it gets misaligned you're likely gonna have to heat and bend that front mount into alignment due you got no slop to play with cause your rear mount is a near perfect fit. now heating and bending that front mount into alignment is no big deal(hopefully you won't have to cut it off and reposition it but that is a possibility) but why do that to yourself just to add some needless weight?
generally speaking...Leonard has everything properly sized to my knowledge. i can't figure out why we would want to upsize anything unless it's the horsepower. we got precious little of that left over for climb and if we go arbitrarily adding weight here and there we got even less
well that's my idea of it.
but i think everybody oughta do their own thing.
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43.13 has a good section on tube structure repair approved methods. there are a lot of good illustrations. notice every illustration has a centerline axis drawn in on each tube and all those lines meet in the center of the cluster... i think it says in the text somewhere that all tubes should point at the center of the cluster. we can't bend the cabanes without violating that requirement.
that doesn't mean we can't get away with a little deviation. mine has a number of minor deviations and so far it's stayed together. but obviously when it's not in line it isn't a straight push/pull on the tube anymore and a bent tube wants to bend some more.
and that's all i know about that.
OK. Sooo... My bottom longerons on the double eagle are bent at station 2 and 3. the plans don't call for any finger straps or gussets. Am I gonna crash and burn?
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Sam, You read my mind about the top longeron carrying on through on the right side. You answered before I even asked the question. It may just be adding extra weight, but I definately think it would stiffen the fuselage in that area and have the side benefite of an arm rest. Thanks.
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>>>OK. Sooo... My bottom longerons on the double eagle are bent at station 2 and 3. the plans don't call for any finger straps or gussets. Am I gonna crash and burn?
in my DE plans p3A and 4 there are straps shown at both the top and bottom of the cabanes. (Those straps are a clue that is supposed to be a welded joint instead of bent). If I didn't have those I would definitely add them. Yessir...
Bent longerons are the normal way. No prob there
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>>>OK. Sooo... My bottom longerons on the double eagle are bent at station 2 and 3. the plans don't call for any finger straps or gussets. Am I gonna crash and burn?
in my DE plans p3A and 4 there are straps shown at both the top and bottom of the cabanes. (Those straps are a clue that is supposed to be a welded joint instead of bent). If I didn't have those I would definitely add them. Yessir...
Bent longerons are the normal way. No prob there
Things are getting a bit confusing now.
Jim was told Leonard discourages bending the top longeron, but yet bending the lower longerons has been the accepted method of construction for a very long time.
So which is it? Bend or not bend?
I'm saying all this to say that common sense must prevail. Yes, bending structural members is generally not the accepted method, but there can be exceptions. I carefully looked at my project and decided bending the top longeron and the cabanes met my standards. This method may not meet other's standards. Each builder must decide for himself, but be open to all options that are not definitively unsafe.
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and I'm still trying to figure out where the confusion is about the tailpost. I've about decided my proof set of plans has a page or something missing as I can't find a reference to .062 in there anywhere. I've never heard of .062 only .058 and .065....062 must be a typo that got missed.
Or something.
I'm going to the shop...things are simpler for me there
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When Tim Anderson, the Fed out of Milwaukee, inspected my DE he looked at the .040 finger straps I had welded on the cabanes and stated he was happy to see them on there. I didn't see them on my XL plans, but I will be welding them on.
A 3/4" .035 slides like a glove in my 7/8 tail post I got from Wicks, no slop, just a slip fit. I'll have to measure the wall on my 7/8, but pretty sure it is .058
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When Tim Anderson, the Fed out of Milwaukee, inspected my DE he looked at the .040 finger straps I had welded on the cabanes and stated he was happy to see them on there. I didn't see them on my XL plans, but I will be welding them on.
A 3/4" .035 slides like a glove in my 7/8 tail post I got from Wicks, no slop, just a slip fit. I'll have to measure the wall on my 7/8, but pretty sure it is .058
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I am getting the hang of grinding the tubes to fit. I wish I had a pedestal grinder on each side if the table. Seems like I do a lot of walking between the table and grinder. Making slow progress though.
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Jim, looking good, your moving right along:)
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I am getting the hang of grinding the tubes to fit. I wish I had a pedestal grinder on each side if the table. Seems like I do a lot of walking between the table and grinder. Making slow progress though.
Hi Jim!
Yes a second comment on great progress.
What has been done many times and is easy to do,- take a 2' square plate (round works too) , put casters (I prefer 3 casters as then I never have a high wheel) use quick step on locking casters to hold your grinder in location- one swivel, two rigid works fine.. Do your center post up from the plate to desired height to hold your grinder. If you feel it is vibrating to much just add more weight at the base. A 3" dia. riser or 4" square is generally stiff enough if 1/4" wall is used. That way you can have your grinder at hand at all times. If you spend 2 hours building this and 10 hours of walking, your way money ahead to do it. Most have all the required items in house. Casters are cheap as they will be in use the rest of your days.
Lastly a vice on a very strong post/floor plate- (not move-able of course) is also a great shop addition and frees up your flat work bench to boot.
Hope this helps.
Scott
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It does help Scott. I should have thought of that. I have casters and all I need to do is add them to the base. Here we go!
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I spent most of yesterday forming up station three and ground and fit tubes today. I am really starting to enjoy building the fuselage. Fitting joints are coming much easier now. Having the little laser to keep everything in proper alignment is worth it's weight in gold as far as I am concerned.
The second picture shows the laser pin pointing the location of one of the joints. You might have to zoom in a little to see the red lines.
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Looks very professional, great job. I'm jealous!:)
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Thanks Gil. I do OK if I just go slow and don't worry about how much time it takes to fit each joint. Tomorrow I will cut the angles on the top of the rear cabanes and fit the upper cabane tubes. Then I can tack all of these tubes together.
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Question....
I figure you probably already stated where you got that laser, but can you please refresh my memory?
Where?
Name?
How much??
Thanks,
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Check that.... I found it on reply #15....
Never mind, Sorry
Thanks,
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I've had mine a couple if years and there may be something even better now but this is what I have.
http://www.amazon.com/Ryobi-Self-leveling-Plumb-Cross-Laser/dp/B002UROXFE/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1392599973&sr=8-4&keywords=ryobi+laser+level
It shoots a vertical, horizontal line and a plumb dot straight down and also straight up to the ceiling. It is also self leveling which makes it easy to set up. I lined up the plumb dot on the blue line on the table and then aligned the vertical line down the blue chalk line. The horizontal line was adjusted to the center of the top longeron. It doesn't get any easier than that.
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Finished the rear cabanes today. Everything behind station 3 is tacked now and still square and plumb.
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She's looking good Jim. :)
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Looks good, most likely be done by Friday!
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I wish!! but thanks for your support! :)
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Confused! I am trying to understand how the wing brackets fit on the top longeron. There is a flat plate that looks to be welded to the upper cabanes and to the square tube wing mount bracket. That would seem to make the dimension between the cabanes and the wing spars a close tolerance item. The plans are pretty vague in this area. Can someone describe how this works. I started to weld the front cabanes but then got to worrying about the 29 inch dimension between the cabanes and would the wing brackets end up in the right place.
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Confused! I am trying to understand how the wing brackets fit on the top longeron. There is a flat plate that looks to be welded to the upper cabanes and to the square tube wing mount bracket. That would seem to make the dimension between the cabanes and the wing spars a close tolerance item. The plans are pretty vague in this area. Can someone describe how this works. I started to weld the front cabanes but then got to worrying about the 29 inch dimension between the cabanes and would the wing brackets end up in the right place.
DO NOT ATTACH THESE FITTINGS UNTIL YOU HAVE BUILT A RIB!
The best way to assure the wings will fit on your fuse is to build the attachments "to fit" using a rib as the template:
(https://www.eaglersnest.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhome.hiwaay.net%2F%7Esbuc%2FlegaleagleXL%2Ffuse-23.jpg&hash=bab5665356d250dbca6ae5b414fdf326291c42bc)
You can get an approximate idea of the placement of the attach fittings from this photo:
(https://www.eaglersnest.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhome.hiwaay.net%2F%7Esbuc%2FlegaleagleXL%2Ffuse-24.jpg&hash=fc957ba54b236daf61fb2ed9b4e4fb48910e3141)
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I looked at your setup before which makes sense. The problem I have understanding is how the .060 plate fits flat against the cabanes and still holds the spar dimension. I am assuming there is a plate that welds to the front cabane and rear cabane and to the wing brackets. Does the flat plate weld in the middle of the 1/2 inch square tube or do you just weld it to the bottom of the wing bracket wherever it lines up with the spars. I am probably not describing this very well but without drawing a picture it's the best I can do.
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Did you built your top bar with the 1" drop per plans or did you make it level? The drawings have 2 degree of incidence built in, if you make the bar level, then you will have to build in the incidence into your wing brackets. Back when the wings attached to a single tube in the center I built a similar attachment for my wings much like the one in common use today. The reason I change my DE was I thought this is going to be pretty difficult for one person install two wings at a time when you must align two sets of brackets for one bolt! anyway I think some thought can be put to use here. I would not weld on the rear bracket until I'm positive where centers will be. You wont really know that until you build a rib. After I found out today I don't have the stock called for in the drawings, I was thinking about forming my own brackets in a brake and instead of drilling holes in a 1/2" sq tube and then having to weld bushings in the thing, it would be for simpler to form the brackets the proper width and use the bushings just as spacers to hold the sides of the wider bracket apart. I will also build the bracket with the lower portion that welds to the cabanes so I don't have to weld that to the brackets ether.
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I built mine with the angle built in to the longeron.
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Your wing mounts will go right on top of your top tube with the forward mount directly over your cabanes. If everything works out right your rear one will go over the top of your rear cabanes. With the fuselage leveled, and centered, I will tack weld my forward bracket in the center. I will make sure it is level across the table. to make sure it is square with the center line I will tape a string on the center of the top longeron just to the rear of the rear cabane, and make sure the ends of the forward mount are the same distance from the center o the top longeron. When the distance is the same the mount will be square with the center line of the fuselage.
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I am assuming then the 29 inch dimension is center to center of the cabanes.
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Yes, all of Leonard's drawings are center to center The forward wing mount would be 24" from the center top tube of station one
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I'm going to tack weld the forward cabanes at the 24 inch dimension and hope for the best. I'll deal with the rear situation when the time comes. If the rear mount doesn't hit directly on top of the rear cabanes I'll just figure a way to brace it with gussets or whatever it takes.
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I am assuming then the 29 inch dimension is center to center of the cabanes.
Jim, I don't recall the exact mental process I used for these dimensions, but you take the 27.5" dimension on the rib plans, add the spars, figure out where the fittings will be, and make sure you have enough room on the top longeron to make everything work.
Simple. ;)
I kinda designed my own gussets for the fittings using the TLAR method (That Looks About Right). There is a piece of sheet stock that is welded to the cabanes, ties into the fittings and wraps over the "tee" of the attachment. Looked strong enough to me.
Every Eagle is unique!
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After sleeping on this I can make this work but the rear mount make take a little engineering to make a good solid attachment to the cabanes.
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I'm curious , what is your solution? I was going to work on mine today, but I'll wait until you do yours.:-\
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maybe you need to come down and look at this with me to make sure i am not screwing this up.:-[
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maybe Tom H will check in here, he has been a great source of information on the cg for my DE.
We hope to come down next weekend , will check in with you early next week. I have some ideas for the Ultra Vair/XL engine mount.
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Jim, just thinking out loud, what if you were to take a short piece of 3/4 or 5/8", say maybe 4" long and split it in half. You could weld the stock mount onto that and slide it back and forth until you have the right location. You could make it long enough to cover your bend in the longeron to strengthen your bend. Should only add a few oz to your build, and be a low profile fix.
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After thought, if you did that for the front mount as well you would be able to adjust your cg when you do your wt/balance and when your happy with the location then weld your mounts. May it is a bad idea, but sounds like it would work to me. Maybe give you some leeway on where you place your fuel tank.
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I finished the front cabanes today and only ended up 3/8 forward than the plans show. I think with the fuel tank forward it will work out to my advantage. Tomorrow I think I will jig up station 1. I just noticed my plans number is D-25 and not 15.
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Gil, per your suggestion I'm checking in, but have to say first that I don't have much knowledge and no experience with the XL model. Regarding CG, you want to get the flying CG in the right range on any aircraft. There has been a lot of discussion of LEU and DE flying CGs on the old Yahoo list, and essentially have concluded that on those aircraft, a flying CG in the 25 - 30% aft of wing leading edge is a good area. I don't know if this applies to the LEXL. Maybe someone with flying experience in the LEXL could chime in.
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Thanks for checking in Tom, your work on the DE was most welcomed . Just off hand do you know the weight of your engine on your le, and are your actual measurements the same as the drawings? I'm using a 1/3 Corvair and I need to figure out just how wide I need to build my engine mount. The engine should weigh 85 pounds. I don't have an actual weight yet for the engine and prop, but I'm hoping it is close to the 1/2 VW
Thanks Gil
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I got a little more done today. I tacked in the firewall and tomorrow I'll add the diagonals and the seat frame.
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Gil, our LEU engine, half VW, 69 x 90.5, w/ prop, oil, distributor, ready to mount on the airplane, weighed 92.5 lbs.
Our LEU airframe was built per plan's dimensions.
We had to push the engine more forward than we had planned to get the CG at 25% aft of wing leading edge. It flew and landed great; just did not have enough hp for climb.
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I have to admit I'm getting pretty tired of grinding and fitting weld joints. I can see the light at the end of the tunnel though.
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Tom H: Wrote in #74
"We had to >SNIP<.... It flew and landed great; just did not have enough hp for climb."
Could you put some estimates on this, i.e, rate of climb ( feet per minute ) at what was the all up weight...
Thanks;
Rodger
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Rodger, our LEU, Treehugger, was heavy, showing 273# on our scales, which we think were reasonably accurate, maybe reading slightly on the high side. But, the airplane was heavy, no matter the numbers.
We were going to carry a vertical speed indicator to measure the rate of climb to help with improvements, but never got to do it.
I would say with our lightest pilot, about 150#, it would climb a couple hundred feet / min. This was with a 54x20 prop, full throttle about 3200 rpm. He could get to cruise and throttle back and maintain altitude.
With me, the heaviest, around 225#, it would climb maybe 100 - 150 ft/min. I never could throttle back and maintain altitude. I tried for max altitude one fine, clear, dry day, and the highest I could get was 1000 ft AGL. That was it.
Our engine, at full throttle using the wood bar dynamometer, produced 29 hp at 3400 rpm.
I believe other LEUs experienced similar lethargic climb, and now most of the guys seem to be going for the bigger displacements, getting mid 30 to mid 40 hp. We were looking into increasing engine stroke, but, again, never got there.
Hope this helps,
Tom H
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Tom I wonder what can be expected with the XL? the 1/3 Corvai is supposed to put out 35 HP, at 85 pounds but we all know in the real world weights are higher than they are supposed to be and HP is always lower. I'll have to check in with the Ultra Vair group and see what their actual HP and wt numbers are. Don' the XL have a larger wing than the LE and some other differences to accommodate the more robust pilot? There are just two many towers around now that reach 1000" AGL or higher for me to feel comfortable. I was figuring on loafing around at about 2500 AGL around 24-2500 RPM.
Any ideas why you plane was heavy? Now I wonder should I just go ahead and build mine as experiential and use a redrive or say a 1600 VW? wonder how many problems I would run into there. Gotten a little heavy over the fall and winter, but my goal is 225 by early summer, maybe I'll have to rethink that, but at my age the pounds just don't fall off.
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Looking at several pictures of finished Eagles I have a question about why there is such a large gap between the bottom of the vertical stab and the top of fuselage. Seems like it would look better if the gap was closed up to a much smaller amount. I'm curious about the reason why.
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Gil, our LEU was heavy for several reasons. Probably the main reason was it was built by a group, and we pleasantly agreed on things, which led to heaviness, rather than fight to keep it light. Sort of the "designed by committee" result. Weight creep. If we ever resurrect it, I think I could get a bunch of weight off of it. Didn't listen to the voices of this group that stress "keep it light".
Regarding the hp of the 1/3 corvair - I'd like to see results from a dynamometer test of the engine. HP results across the rpm range at full throttle. Or, at least, a wood bar dyno test like we and several others have done on the 1/2 VW, which gives a hp/rpm reading at full throttle, a single point, but better than just a lot of claims thrown around.
I know very little of the XL, but I believe it uses the same wing design, but longer span, but still keeps the weight at legal ultralight. Correct me if I am wrong. If so, as I understand it, it should climb better, all other things being equal.
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Tom, I'm not familiar with the wood beam dyno, so I looked it up. Now I see basically what it is, but I don't understand just how you derive actual results. Any simple explanation?
Thanks
Gil
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Gil, we're sort of hijacking Jim's topic with this subject of wood bar dynos, so I started a new topic under engines/2 cyl.
Hope you can find it. I noticed that Les Homan recently posted some results of his wood bar dyno tests there, too.
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found it, thanks
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Looking at several pictures of finished Eagles I have a question about why there is such a large gap between the bottom of the vertical stab and the top of fuselage. Seems like it would look better if the gap was closed up to a much smaller amount. I'm curious about the reason why.
Just wanted to bump this to the top. It got buried the other day.
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I filled in the area between the vertical fin and horizontal with thin flashing. It makes that area look more finished.
I don't really notice much difference in the flying ability of the Eagle..
Bob
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Thanks Bob. I wonder why they didn't just make the stab fit closer in the first place.
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Ease of construction....
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Thanks Bob. I wonder why they didn't just make the stab fit closer in the first place.
Jim, install the vertical stab root rib as close to the bend in the leading edge as possible and you will have a minimal gap. You can also move the stab closer to the fuse, just make sure you leave room for the horiz stab.
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Thanks guys.
The fuse is out of the jig and ready to finish weld. I need to rig up the rotisserie now.
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looks great looks like you have been putting a lot of time in there.
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Thanks. It took 15 days to get the fuselage tacked to this point. I tried to work some every day and some on the weekends too.
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Nice job Jim. I think, with the exception of the wing mounts and the fairlead holders I'm finally done welding all the joints. Every time I think I'm done I see another spot that needs a little welding. Sure would like to be trying this thing out late summer or early fall.
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It will be a while longer for me. I haven't done any of the other stuff yet like wing or tail parts.
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I still have to order some steel for the 3/4 real braces on the landing gear. I have what is called a B tank for my acetylene , wow is that stuff expensive. Cost me 42.00 per refill. Oxygen isn't to bad, it is only 18.00
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I barely used one tank of each for my welding...
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I sill have some left, but the gage is going down. A B tank isn't very large, maybe 6" dia 24" tall.
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OK... I used I guess FULL_SIZE tanks... Oxy was 3.5' or so tall, Acetylene was maybe 3' tall, 8" dia. and both were HEAVY!!
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I have about 6 hours in welding up the fuselage. My welds have graduated from gorilla welds to orangutan. Boy this is gonna take awhile.
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Hillbilly engineering! Too lazy to drive 150 miles round trip to Harbor Freight so I made my own. 1-1/2 inch PVC floor drain, 1-1/2 PVC coupling, some 1-1/2 PVC pipe and I have a rotisserie. It swivels and I can lock it down by tightening the coupling. It is mounted on the electric lift so I can raise and lower to suit. It actually works pretty good but the engine stand would have been better. Note to self, leave the corners of the station 1 open for welding.
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Jim, how much 1/2 and 5/8 tubing did it take to build the fuesalage? I know you ordered 140 feet of 5/8. How much did you have left over? Have you made anymore progress or are you on spring break? This forum goes dead at times. Where is every body?
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I do have some left but I still have to make the landing gear. I'll look when I get out to the shop and get back. One thing I didn't get enough of was the .090 sheet. A 6 by 12 is not enough. I ordered a 12 by 12. Another problem is the 1/2 inch square tube to make the wing mounts out of. I can't find .062 wall any where. I may just use 5/8.
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Jim, I think the 5/8 .065 square tubeing will work better for the wing mounts anyway.
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Did you built your top bar with the 1" drop per plans or did you make it level? The drawings have 2 degree of incidence built in, if you make the bar level, then you will have to build in the incidence into your wing brackets. Back when the wings attached to a single tube in the center I built a similar attachment for my wings much like the one in common use today. The reason I change my DE was I thought this is going to be pretty difficult for one person install two wings at a time when you must align two sets of brackets for one bolt! anyway I think some thought can be put to use here. I would not weld on the rear bracket until I'm positive where centers will be. You wont really know that until you build a rib. After I found out today I don't have the stock called for in the drawings, I was thinking about forming my own brackets in a brake and instead of drilling holes in a 1/2" sq tube and then having to weld bushings in the thing, it would be for simpler to form the brackets the proper width and use the bushings just as spacers to hold the sides of the wider bracket apart. I will also build the bracket with the lower portion that welds to the cabanes so I don't have to weld that to the brackets ether.
Jim to further simply-outline this part of the build as per grdev and Sam has stated... you would have to talk along time to convince me you should be welding in these two attach points before your wings are done. NO matter how much you want to.
Simply stated, if you build your wings and end up with your attach straps (built on your wings) to say 29.125" instead of 29"- and that would be ok for your plane but would not me ok if you have your wing attach points already in place.
as far as angle of incidence, that is built into the plane by the way of the plans. in other words, your two attach points would be built at the same point or level to the top bar, front and back. I would tie the two attach points into the top bar of your aircraft via tie plates. simple but effective to bring it all together.
the bushings in the two little cross bars can be all made to exactly fit your aircraft and if you reverse build your wings (right and left being equal) these bushing should be exactly the same, if not that would cause concern as what did you do to one wing that you did not do to the other. That would hardly be a problem for any builder though.
Best of success. I got a few photos of this tie plate shown on the photo files section under my name.
thanks
Scott
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I won't weld the rear mount in until the ribs are done. I may try to use Sam's method to get the spacing for the rear mount. There are a lot of places that seem to be made to fit by using the mating part a a jig and that's ok with me. I'm not going to weld the landing gear up until I have the brackets welded to the fuselage.
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Finished cutting all the rib gussets yesterday. I never thought about how many there are but I made a total of 812 gussets for all 26 ribs. I started with a 4 X 4 foot piece of.8 MM plywood and only had about a 12 X 48 inch piece left.
A pair of sharp scissors and a paper cutter did the trick.
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Finished cutting all the seat parts today. Sure is nice to have access to a hydraulic shear. Now to figure out how to make the spacing nice and even for drilling.
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Jim, It looks like you added an extra one on the length and width (9 x 15 instead of 8 x 14 rows).Yes a shear is nice to have. It makes quik work of cutting out your seat parts. I got lucky on my rib gussets. The kit I bought allready had the ribs made. I did make a rib jig and made a trial rib in it before I found the partially built kit. It already had the spars built as well. I now have both wings built. The fuselage and landing gear is made, but It was not built to plans dimentions. That is why I was interested in how much 1/2 and 5/8 tubing you used. I am going to build another fuselage to exact plans dimentions. I am also going to rebuild the tail feathers as he did not wrap the gussets all the way around to tie the ribs to the leading and trailing edge. I thought I was getting a quik build kit, but I didn't get what I thought I was getting. Live and learn I guess. Since it is my life rideing on it, I wan it right. Do it right the first time!
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I would certainly order 140 ft. Of tubing. Is the fuselage a different shape or length? Seems a shame to have to start over. That is a lot of extra work. Are you sure you can't save what you already have. Do you have any pictures?
I had an extra strip made so I just squeezed the spacing a little. The overall width is still to plans. I also added one extra of the cross strips. If I had it do do again I would make some kind of form to bend the end tabs over with so they would all be exactly the same width.
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Jim, it is a different length and width. The tubes don't come together at a center point. It has some rust pitting. He substituted 1/2 in place of 5/8 in several places. I just feel better building it myself.
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I don't blame you. I have seen several on the web that didn't bring all the tubes to a central point and I'm sure that probably doesn't make much difference in an ultralight. It would be easier to weld up and easier to fit the individual tubes. I tried to make all mine join up together and it does require quite a bit more effort. This is just my opinion but I would not make the top longeron in one long single piece. I would do it like the plans show,
There is a lot of tubing you could salvage from the old fuselage too.
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There probably is some tubing I could cut out and use from it. I do have pictures, but I have to get my son-in-law to help download them when he is able to come over. I might could use it as is, just cut out some tubes and replace them. I'm not sure my carlson struts will be long enough though. I had them cut at 80 inches for shipping. the fuselage is only about 21 inches wide in between station 2 and 3. When you make changes to the plans, it affects a lot of other thing.
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Have you looked at a set of plans for the regular Legal Eagle. That is about what the width is on it. Maybe you just have an LE fuselage. I have a set of plans for an LE if you need to compare any numbers. The only reason I am building an XL is because the plans are updated. I didn't need the extra room or weight allowance.
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Jim, I think it is a mixture of the two. Try this link and see the kit I bought on July 29,2012. http://picasaweb. google.com/VansAirForce/LEXL . It looks good in the pictures. The plans that came with it are #LEXL-A-05.
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Would you send me an email. I may know something about this plane.
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You might also ask Sam Buchanan about this kit as he may know something about the history.
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Thanks Jim. Keep up the good work on your plane.
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I deleted the post with your email so it wouldn't be out there for the world to see. You are Randy, right?
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Seems you didn't delete his email.... You will have to contact one of the moderators if you really want it deleted...
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It is gone from my thread. Hit refresh and see if it is still there. Thanks for the heads up.
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Jim, It looks like you added an extra one on the length and width (9 x 15 instead of 8 x 14 rows).Yes a shear is nice to have. It makes quik work of cutting out your seat parts. I got lucky on my rib gussets. The kit I bought allready had the ribs made. I did make a rib jig and made a trial rib in it before I found the partially built kit. It already had the spars built as well. I now have both wings built. The fuselage and landing gear is made, but It was not built to plans dimentions. That is why I was interested in how much 1/2 and 5/8 tubing you used. I am going to build another fuselage to exact plans dimentions. I am also going to rebuild the tail feathers as he did not wrap the gussets all the way around to tie the ribs to the leading and trailing edge. I thought I was getting a quik build kit, but I didn't get what I thought I was getting. Live and learn I guess. Since it is my life rideing on it, I wan it right. Do it right the first time!
I remember when your "kit" was purchased by the individual from whom you got it and how everyone seemed to be impressed with the build quality. I was surprised by your comments so went back and looked at the photos.
That looks like a very nicely built Eagle. I would not hesitate to fly the tail group as is, wrapping the gussets won't add any more strength to what is already there. I would add gussets and/or straps to the cabin cabanes where they are bent but the rest of the fuse looks great in the photos. You are aware that some of the diagonals in the rear of the fuse are supposed to be 1/2"? Surface rust is normal for 4130 that has sat around for awhile, but if it cleans off with light sanding you are good to go.
Maybe the plane looks worse in person than in the photos, but to me it looks very nice....probably a lot better than many flying Eagles! I would have no second thoughts flying that plane with the mod mentioned above. You might want to get an opinion from an experienced local light aircraft builder before scrapping that fuse and tail group.
Post a sign in your shop that reads thus: We are building an airplane here, not heart valves. ;)
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Sam, Thanks for the reply. In the pictures it does look better than it does in person. The surface rust dosen't bother me. It is the pitting, mostly at the rear of the fuselage. Please understand, I am not cutting the individual down that I bought it from. He did not build it. The cross braces from station one to station 2 are 1/2 inch instead of 5/8. Because the fuselage is narrower, he installed the stubs for the rudder pedal at an angle to clear the diaginal in the foot well. The cabane tubes at station three meet above the other tubes. It is not supported by the other tubes. Maybe I am obsessing over the little things, after all it is a slow airplane. I would just feel better if it was built to the plans. I'm still glad I bought the kit. Sorry for hijaking your thread Jim. Randy Q.
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Thanks Sam for your thoughts. I didn't know at the time it was the kit Doug bought but if it was I was pretty sure there would not have been anything wrong with the kit.
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Little more progress today. Finished making the seat and clecoed it to the fuselage
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LOOKS to me like you MAY have put it too high/tight... I know I had to add a few inches to my seat to make it lower, just off the control stick... Make sure to use screws to fasten it to the cross bars.... with washers on each side of the strap. My head was hitting the long. tube and would have hit the bottom of the wing if it were on!
Bob Severance
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Boy I hope not. I spent all day making that thing. I made it to print. The long strips are 36 inches long. I intentionally raised the front seat mount tube an inch because of my height or lack of. That should have made the seat have even more drop in the seat area. I sat I. It and have lots of head room but I seem to sit pretty far forward. Had I made it to print I would have sat even more forward as the seat would have been tighter. I guess I'll fly it this way to start and then make whatever changes are necessary to make it comfortable.
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Boy I hope not. I spent all day making that thing. I made it to print. The long strips are 36 inches long. I intentionally raised the front seat mount tube an inch because of my height or lack of. That should have made the seat have even more drop in the seat area. I sat I. It and have lots of head room but I seem to sit pretty far forward. Had I made it to print I would have sat even more forward as the seat would have been tighter. I guess I'll fly it this way to start and then make whatever changes are necessary to make it comfortable.
Jim, one advantage of the simple seat is that it is easy to make another one if needed for a better fit.
I too was concerned about the free-form shape of the sling seat pushing me too far forward. The brace I included in my seat solved that issue and resulted in a bucket seat that fits my bucket quite nicely.
(https://www.eaglersnest.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhome.hiwaay.net%2F%7Esbuc%2FlegaleagleXL%2Fseat-5.jpg&hash=c2886604f6527b6b1d9009ed3bb7c9005318fe4c)
(https://www.eaglersnest.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhome.hiwaay.net%2F%7Esbuc%2FlegaleagleXL%2Fseat-2.jpg&hash=fbb71826ae72f374ab757e08d5f02296af0b2317)
The additional structure forces the seat to retain a chair-like shape.
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Jim, one advantage of the simple seat is that it is easy to make another one if needed for a better fit. I too was concerned about the free-form shape of the sling seat pushing me too far forward. The brace I included in my seat solved that issue and resulted in a bucket seat that fits my bucket quite nicely. The additional structure forces the seat to retain a chair-like shape.
Sam, did you weld some tabs to station #3 to fasten the seat bar?
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One more question Sam, was this a second attempt with longer strips or did you make your strips 36 inches long per print.
Thanks
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No tabs at station three, the seat is attached with bolts per the plans.
The seat was built with 36" strips per the plans. Well....sorta per the plans. I didn't have a 36" shear so the strips are joined at the brace. The brace cables are secured with the seat belt anchor bolts. Notice upper left corner of this photo taken during initial fitup:
(https://www.eaglersnest.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhome.hiwaay.net%2F%7Esbuc%2FlegaleagleXL%2Fwing-31.jpg&hash=d3dac10da12e60f8a1ce8dcfff8379c5c1337f38)
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Jim, it is a different length and width. The tubes don't come together at a center point. It has some rust pitting. He substituted 1/2 in place of 5/8 in several places. I just feel better building it myself.
Coming from my industrial design background... but also knowing there are all kinds of people in this world. I still can't believe there are those that somehow or in someway decide this is OK to do... And then to dig deeper, how do they determined their way is better? (substitute or move stations)
Just the other day a fellow tried to convince a group that if he hand pulled 3000 rivets, he would be building a better aircraft than if it had been built with an air operated rivet puller.
When we asked if he took in fatigue factor, or the inability to duplicate 3000 hand pulls like he could with a air operated puller, he said quickly "but mine is HAND built" So we asked further, what kind of rivets did he use? Didn't have a clue, but was pretty sure but not positive that they were stainless or something... Lost his audience after that... Some you can't help.
cheers
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Speaking of making changes Sam, I like the extra gusset you added for the seat belt bracket to attach to. That takes the twist out of the belt.
I looked for 30 minutes in my plans for the detail on that bracket before it dawned on me that it was a mod.
Scott, I hope those rivets came with the kit for his plane and not Home Depot aluminum pop rivets. :o
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Pfft... Home Depot Rivets?? I used all pull rivets from Harbor Freight...What's wrong with the ones from Home Depot???
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Nothing if you are using them on a Legal Eagle seat. Maybe not so good on an RV12 or Zenith.
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I believe Leonard calls for bolts in the seat straps now stead of pop rivets
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I first built my seat per the LEU plans and it didn't even come close to fitting me. the thing took some time to build so I abandoned that (cause it looked like guesswork to redo it) and welded a half inch tube down low between the sta 3 uprights and alternated the vert and horizontal strips to that. that allowed control of the seat shape and also spread the load on the fasteners among more fasteners. I did use pop rivets cause that was the callout at the time but used Avex 4s(ACS) which are by most estimates as good as bolts. I haven't had any probs with that arrangement but if doing it again I might consider using washers under the avex4 shop head (on the pulled side). if don't wanta do that then just add some rivets in the bottom strips where all the weight is. like double em up 2 side by side on each end. or better yet use bolts/washers like Leonard calls out.
this has been done in a number of diff ways and to my knowledge no probs have been reported. the one thing that bothers me about the various ways is using hardware store pop rivets of any type. personal opinion...you do it your way
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Are we talking about the pop rivets that hold all the strips together or the bolts that attach the strips to the 4130 tubes. Maybe I misread but I thought pop rivets were fine and bolts are only used to fasten the seat to the tubing.
There is around 125 pop rivets holding my strips together. I can't imagine anything that could cause them to give way while flying that would be a problem. I would think you would have much bigger problems if a force big enough to cause the seat to fail.
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On my Double Eagle I used SS #6 round head screws to attach the seat. I used four screws, two on each end. I also used washers on the nut side. Put a drop of blue Loctite on each screw I used Home Depot 1/8 aluminum pop rivets for the rest of the seat. The seat was comfortable, but when I decided to install push tubes for the elevator the seat rubbed the push rod. That is when I sandwiched the strips with two 1/8" x 1/2" aluminum to make the seat more like a conventional seat. After a hard landing due to an engine out, the two places that I had the sides of my seat attached to bowed in. I don't know how this would handle something other than an unusually hard landing. The seat is very strong as designed,
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I think i know why my head is so close to the rear bars now lol