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Author Topic: high altitude conditions  (Read 5062 times)

Offline flyover1974

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high altitude conditions
« on: June 10, 2017, 01:58:50 AM »
Hello,

i need to say im living in the middle of the european Alps in a skiing place on 6000 ft.
There is a very nice meadow 1100ft long and 15 degrees banking.
this is the place where i want to takeoff and landing.
So yesterday i made static engine tests with my prop. this is a 54x24 one but compared to others here, have larger blades.
the specs are 94x86, std cam, CR of 8,15:1, two 26mm Keihin copies carbs, setup lightly rich.

i was a little disappointed because turns only 2750 rpm and 125lb of thrust. Air temp was 59 F and EGT was 1100 F.
i mounted a fliter oil pump with 29mm large gears and was wondering of the high pressure too: it was over 6,5 bar in idle and the same with full throttle, oil temp was 95 F.

Please someone can help me with my numbers ? Are they normal?
The pic is my prop.

Hermann

Offline Steve

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Re: high altitude conditions
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2017, 06:47:56 AM »
Hello,

i need to say im living in the middle of the european Alps in a skiing place on 6000 ft.
There is a very nice meadow 1100ft long and 15 degrees banking.
this is the place where i want to takeoff and landing.
So yesterday i made static engine tests with my prop. this is a 54x24 one but compared to others here, have larger blades.
the specs are 94x86, std cam, CR of 8,15:1, two 26mm Keihin copies carbs, setup lightly rich.

i was a little disappointed because turns only 2750 rpm and 125lb of thrust. Air temp was 59 F and EGT was 1100 F.
i mounted a fliter oil pump with 29mm large gears and was wondering of the high pressure too: it was over 6,5 bar in idle and the same with full throttle, oil temp was 95 F.

Please someone can help me with my numbers ? Are they normal?
The pic is my prop.

Hermann


GPAS charts of important Vw numbers:

https://www.eaglersnest.com/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=125
https://www.eaglersnest.com/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=126

Offline Steve

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Re: high altitude conditions
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2017, 12:28:06 PM »
RE: user prop experience:

Hermann,
I've tried a number of props out of 1450 & 2600 ft ASL strips on a 35 hp 1/2 engine - the LE 10% overgross... The 54 x 24 is too much prop... The best performer was a narrow tip 54 x 22 cut down to a 52 x 22...Leonard has had a number of props on the prototype and liked his cut down 52 x 22 prop best too... The 45 hp engine is a different animal and Frank at Performance Propellers has done a lot of prop development on that engine... Les Homan has flown the Performance Props to high altitude (above 7k)... Those are the guys to talk with... On a 54 x 20 prop my 35 hp engine pulled 190 ft/lbs at sea level (I was showing 1400 F EGT!)... You need at least 140 ft/lbs of thrust on a LE at sea level to get a ROC between 100 & 200 ft/min at gross...

Your interesting posts are appreciated!...
Steve

Offline scottiniowa

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Re: high altitude conditions
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2017, 03:52:48 PM »
RE: user prop experience:

Hermann,
I've tried a number of props out of 1450 & 2600 ft ASL strips on a 35 hp 1/2 engine - the LE 10% overgross... The 54 x 24 is too much prop... The best performer was a narrow tip 54 x 22 cut down to a 52 x 22...Leonard has had a number of props on the prototype and liked his cut down 52 x 22 prop best too... The 45 hp engine is a different animal and Frank at Performance Propellers has done a lot of prop development on that engine... Les Homan has flown the Performance Props to high altitude (above 7k)... Those are the guys to talk with... On a 54 x 20 prop my 35 hp engine pulled 190 ft/lbs at sea level (I was showing 1400 F EGT!)... You need at least 140 ft/lbs of thrust on a LE at sea level to get a ROC between 100 & 200 ft/min at gross...

Your interesting posts are appreciated!...
Steve
Yes,   Hermann, I to find your prop experimentation very interesting.  While I know little in regards to what might work better,   I have found a fairly consistent measurement that causes fairly inconsistent results.   That is simply,  a 52 x 22 to one prop maker, is different to another prop maker.   Am hoping Frank might be able to shed light on it.

An extreme example in his would have been a Paul Lipps prop,  what ever number you put on his, it would most certainly give different results vs another builders prop with the same number on his.  

Have a  good friend that built a prop with  Paul’s numbers used, and it looks odd as heck with its little pencil ends…and huge fat center area.   It has worked extremely well, but I don’t think you would find him saying, that is was calculated to work best on his minimax…  It was his guess and it worked well.  Nothing more, nothing less.

  Even today, we find the “best” for super cubs constantly changing,  I have just bought what I am hoping is the best answer for climb and cruise, but only time will tell.  And most certainly next year there may be something different.  And I must say, I have never seen a shape for an 82” prop, like what I just bought, certainly doesn’t make it better or worse, presently --just different.  Strongly hoping for the “better” under testing.
best email address:  irondesignairparts@gmail.com

Offline flyover1974

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Re: high altitude conditions
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2017, 05:09:29 PM »
Thank you Steve for the link with the numbers.
it helps me a lot.

an Thank you Scott for your infos.
In the last 5 monts i read a lot of many different people and sites on the net and somwhere i found something of a guy they test a lot...maybe was you ?
I don't remember because was too many input from too many site over too many time :)
But maybe you can tell me what you estimate from my actual setup with 1100 EGT to a setup with 1400 EGT, how many increase subjectively estimated in % do you think ?
I hope you understand what i mean....

and than i have a request to all they have a shape for props: maybe someone have it as cad file or better, if someone can convert it to stl file, so i can cnc machine it on my selfmade hobby router. I think in certain limits its enough to scale the prop for different sizes.
See here if interesting:



The working area is not that big enough to cnc the whole prop at one but if i drill first the center hole and fix a pin on the router, i can machine first one side and than rotating the piece 180 degrees make the other side. So i can make a prop up to 67 inch.
EDIT: Sorry guys, found right now the topic with the numbers for the 1/2 VW engine....is big and fat at he top of this site.
There is written on full case is very hard to reach 160 F Oil temp, and probably at my home is harder because the average air temps are lot colder than in Texas ;)
Is that a Prob if oil reach only something around 140 F ? I know that the ideal oil temps are around 165 to 195 F ...


Hermann

Offline flyover1974

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Some computations...
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2017, 03:47:32 AM »
I made some computations about the altitude, temperature and powe loss due to this factors.
I compute the max power on my testing pressure altitude of 6575 ft (yes its true, i live slightly over 2000m msl ;) ) is 18% less and that is exactly what the rpm turns: 3250 -18% is somwhere about 2750 rpm and 45hp -18% is somthing about 37hp. That seems good numbers.
So i need to try the engine now below 1000 Ft to get a good real comparison.

Cheers

Offline scottiniowa

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Re: high altitude conditions
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2017, 04:28:09 AM »
 

an Thank you Scott for your infos.
In the last 5 monts i read a lot of many different people and sites on the net and somwhere i found something of a guy they test a lot...maybe was you ? 
and than i have a request to all they have a shape for props: maybe someone have it as cad file or better, if someone can convert it to stl file, so i can cnc machine it on my selfmade hobby router. I think in certain limits its enough to scale the prop for different sizes.
 
and:

The working area is not that big enough to cnc the whole prop at one but if i drill first the center hole and fix a pin on the router, i can machine first one side and than rotating the piece 180 degrees make the other side. So i can make a prop up to 67 inch.
EDIT: Sorry guys, found right now the topic with the numbers for the 1/2 VW engine....is big and fat at he top of this site.
There is written on full case is very hard to reach 160 F Oil temp, and probably at my home is harder because the average air temps are lot colder than in Texas ;)
Is that a Prob if oil reach only something around 140 F ? I know that the ideal oil temps are around 165 to 195 F ...


Hermann
Herman, I don't know if I am the Scott you thanked. but...I got lost in the wordage, and I don't think I was the guy you  mentioned about testing something. sorry

On props, I don't think your going to find much info or files, unless you go direct to prop making site. I know if I was a prop maker and thought I really had it figured out, I wouldn't be sharing my hard work/testing just because someone asked for it. sorry again.

on oil temps:  if you consistently never get the oil warm, you will NOT be able to burn (boil or steam away) the water off that condensed in your crank case after each flight.  But you kind of answered your own question by stating the ideal temp range.

Good luck!
best email address:  irondesignairparts@gmail.com

Offline flyover1974

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Re: high altitude conditions
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2017, 11:57:51 PM »
Scott, thank you for answer.
About the oil temps, if it remain low temps i think about to cover the cooling fins at the bottom of the case because it seems there is the most cooling surface.
Covering the whole bottom probably reduce cooling op to 50%

 

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