Low cost, Low convenience, high TCO? (no folding or removable wings)

[dapug]

Hi folks. I'm new, just recently discovered Legal Eagle, recommended to me by some enthusiasts. Very cool. Been reading up like crazy. Please don't beat me up for this observation and inquiry.

Observation:
The awesomeness of the Legal Eagle is outweighed by the most glaring downside of it: inability to store it conveniently and cost-effectively.

The WHOLE selling point on this thing focuses on low cost, and how it can be built with basic tools at home.  BUT... a completed unit cannot then be stored for low cost, nor can t be stored at home**.  Oh the irony.  Painful, once I realized this.  

The # 1 reason to consider a Legal Eagle is low cost.  Debate if you must, but there are plenty of other kits and purchases one could make if money wasn't at least the primary factor.  The only one that might rival it is "I like how it flies". Sure, Ok.

TCO? Yes, total cost of ownership is higher than with something you can store in a trailer or garage.  **Not all of us have fields, barns, hangars, or multi-stall empty garages. If we did, we wouldn't be flying low-cost aircraft, would we?  To RENT a hangar at the local airport could cost anywhere from $50 to $250+ per month.  Whelp, there goes all the frugality.  And even IF you are ok with that ongoing cost, hangars are not easy to come by! You might not even get one if you had the money. Jumping from appealing to appalling is rapid here.

But you can remove the wings:
Yes, you can. I've seen the video.  But 2-3 hours of work... tis a no go, even at 1 hr. That's not appealing, practical or convenient.

But a folding or removable wing design would push it over 254lb limit:
BS.  Look at the Kolb Firefly.  1995 that thing was invented.  1995!  That's over 20 years old tech. Folds in 7 minutes, and is of course 103 legal. And of course, weight is non-issue for the non-103 Double Eagle.

Ok then, just go buy a Kolb, ya whiner:
No.  $25,000 vs $5,000?  We aren't even in the same league in terms of cost here.

Looking forward:
With that out of the way, please understand, I am not nit picking the LE!  In fact, I'm rooting for it.  My whole purpose in posting this is to explore what is possible in terms of mods for storage, or if needs be, a completely new design with storage as a priority.  There ought to be a plan-built plane exactly as cool and low cost as the Legal Eagle, with storageability to boot.  If such a thing exists and I missed it, I need to be educated.  If the Legal Eagle has the potential to BE that craft, then I'd like to rally serious enthusiasts/engineers to help draft a mod (assuming it's not a priority for Leonard Milholland himself).

[cluttonfred]

If you are not married to Part 103, then the Cabin Eagle *does* have folding wings.

[dapug]

Whoa, wait, this is the first I've heard of that. @cluttonfred Thanks for sharing!  The site doesn't even mention such a feature. Is this in the official plans for the Cabin model, or was it a mod?

I am PPL certified, so yes on the Cabin model in my case, but I also want to build a single-seat 103 legal.  I figured I'd do both at the same time (family project with my kids).

[okdonn]

Leonard released the Cabin Eagle plans a couple of years ago, IIRC. See:
http://www.betterhalfvw.com/lsaorder.htm

[dapug]

I haven't seen the plans since I've not committed to what I am building yet.  Anyone seen both the Cabin and the LE XL to make an assessment of how the folding wing design of the Cabin could be applied to the LE?

More digging has turned up only one case so far: the "Bodacious" by John Steere, which apparently has an extensive re-design of the wing and NO plans available to follow that path. But this is exactly what I'd like to see for the LE.


Not sure why no mod plans were shared.  If I did such a cool, critical-to-the-usefulness mod, I'd open it right up for everyone to critique/improve, and build.  Sigh...

[scottiniowa]

Hi folks. I'm new, just recently discovered Legal Eagle, recommended to me by some enthusiasts. Very cool. Been reading up like crazy. Please don't beat me up for this observation and inquiry.

Observation:
The awesomeness of the Legal Eagle is outweighed by the most glaring downside of it: inability to store it conveniently and cost-effectively.

The WHOLE selling point on this thing focuses on low cost, and how it can be built with basic tools at home.  BUT... a completed unit cannot then be stored for low cost, nor can t be stored at home**.  Oh the irony.  Painful, once I realized this.  

The # 1 reason to consider a Legal Eagle is low cost.  Debate if you must, but there are plenty of other kits and purchases one could make if money wasn't at least the primary factor.  The only one that might rival it is "I like how it flies". Sure, Ok.

TCO? Yes, total cost of ownership is higher than with something you can store in a trailer or garage.  **Not all of us have fields, barns, hangars, or multi-stall empty garages. If we did, we wouldn't be flying low-cost aircraft, would we?  To RENT a hangar at the local airport could cost anywhere from $50 to $250+ per month.  Whelp, there goes all the frugality.  And even IF you are ok with that ongoing cost, hangars are not easy to come by! You might not even get one if you had the money. Jumping from appealing to appalling is rapid here.

But you can remove the wings:
Yes, you can. I've seen the video.  But 2-3 hours of work... tis a no go, even at 1 hr. That's not appealing, practical or convenient.

But a folding or removable wing design would push it over 254lb limit:
BS.  Look at the Kolb Firefly.  1995 that thing was invented.  1995!  That's over 20 years old tech. Folds in 7 minutes, and is of course 103 legal. And of course, weight is non-issue for the non-103 Double Eagle.

Ok then, just go buy a Kolb, ya whiner:
No.  $25,000 vs $5,000?  We aren't even in the same league in terms of cost here.

Looking forward:
With that out of the way, please understand, I am not nit picking the LE!  In fact, I'm rooting for it.  My whole purpose in posting this is to explore what is possible in terms of mods for storage, or if needs be, a completely new design with storage as a priority.  There ought to be a plan-built plane exactly as cool and low cost as the Legal Eagle, with storageability to boot.  If such a thing exists and I missed it, I need to be educated.  If the Legal Eagle has the potential to BE that craft, then I'd like to rally serious enthusiasts/engineers to help draft a mod (assuming it's not a priority for Leonard Milholland himself).

If I could clarify...just a few of your thoughts.
Most of them on the cheap side of things...

  Hanger rent-  So your considering even $50.00 month to high? or a deal breaker?

Cost to build-  your planning on $5000,  what happens if you get to that level and find you may need $1000 more to finish

I couldn't tell for sure, but storage.-  Sounds like you don't have the extra garage space, so your intending on a enclosed trailer?  Are you building that too? and planning on that and the airplane to total $5000?

Monthly flying cost-  what is your estimations for this?

ultralight required?   or a bit more weight with the wing fold?    Can you do the latter?  or insist on the first?

just wondering.

[dapug]

If I could clarify...just a few of your thoughts.
Most of them on the cheap side of things...

 Hanger rent-  So your considering even $50.00 month to high? or a deal breaker?

Cost to build-  your planning on $5000,  what happens if you get to that level and find you may need $1000 more to finish

I couldn't tell for sure, but storage.-  Sounds like you don't have the extra garage space, so your intending on a enclosed trailer?  Are you building that too? and planning on that and the airplane to total $5000?

Monthly flying cost-  what is your estimations for this?

ultralight required?   or a bit more weight with the wing fold?    Can you do the latter?  or insist on the first?

just wondering.

Scott, I appreciate the reply.   I think some of the concerns you raised come from being too strict in the details.  If I mention a target of $5k it doesn't mean $5001, or even $6k is a gross violation and deal breaker. And the $5k was just for illustration anyway (wildly different totals listed on Leonards own site, let alone actual builders)

Missed my point on hanger. Dunno where you are from, but there are plenty areas where there are NO available hangar spots, no matter how much $ you have available.

I already have a trailer, yes, that will be the home for 1 plane, and garage (1 stall) for the other.

Monthly cost to fly... of course there is, the $ of which varies widely on how often one flies. Another good reason not to spend too much on the build. 

I already addressed the point about ultralight vs LSA, and folding wings.  Yes, folding wings are totally doable (Kolb Firefly, Belite UltraCub, Bodacious Legal Eagle mod).  And yes, I want both part 103 and LSA when I'm done. 2-seater for training, and 1-seater for fun.

Lastly, you mentioned the cost of engines in a PM... yeah, it sucks.  I don't see any way around spending less than $4-5k on the engine alone.  1/2 VW from Hummel aint cheap, even if you mod your own Type 1 (which you also have to buy), that isn't cheap in $ or time without proper equip, and neither is a Polini Thor 250, or a Verner 3V affordable.  Again, all the more reason to keep build cost down. Ain't nothin wrong with that, and I think Leonard did a fine job with that goal in mind (minus the lack of folding wing, sigh...)

[wfrandy]

You are not alone, as I am in the same situation. Mine will have folding wings (LEXL), and if I have to redesign to accommodate that requirement, so be it. Like you, I do not have the option to get a hanger, as a shared hanger at the airport three miles from my house, if one can be found, is $250-500/month. Additionally, if it takes an hour to assemble, and an hour to disassemble and re-trailer my plane each time I want to fly, I will never have time to fly. So yeah, I am currently working on some design changes that will allow me to have a preflight prep time, from on the trailer to engine start, of less than twenty minutes, while staying under the Part 103 weight limit. I think it is doable  

To address your next question, I doubt if I will be posting my design on the Internet for everyone to use. Their are several reasons for this, but the primary one is that, I currently just don't have any desire to be in the airplane design business. Because of that, I do not intend to spend the time it takes, to properly document the changes I make, well enough so that someone not able to design their own could duplicate my efforts safely. While I have no intention keeping what I do a secret, neither do I intend to draw up plans for the final result. Keep in mind, the Legal Eagle XL, as originally designed, is so close to the weight limit, that I am certain that folding wings cannot be done without going over weight. So a complete redesign, of the wings at the very least, may be needed to accomplish the goal.

I should probably also add that my preliminary testing so far indicates that to lighten the LEXL enough to add folding wings, while keeping the same strength, is going to nearly double the cost of the airframe. The wing is already extremely light and strong, so to lighten it further is going to involve using exotic materials like, carbon fiber, and titanium. I am currently making test samples of a carbon fiber vacuum molded leading edge, which, if my first design works will save a couple of pounds. But the preliminary cost estimate for that leading edge is $456.00, and that is for the actual materials used only, it doesn't include the mold or expendable supplies.

[Theodore]

I'm in the pacific northwest, 1977' MSL, hot summers and cold winters, also wanting to fly in mountains(4000'). I've bought standard eagle plans but performance i read about is Texas at virtually sea level.
We have an EAA here in Spokane and yes 103 rules only need transponder and radio, also have a friend at a farm thatsoutside of airspace with lots of treeless county roads (he has an airstrip but quite windy there)) for testing/firstflight, I'm hoping i can get my medical and fly LSA at winch time i'll build DE or CE. (4cyl. power).
First plane 3K, second 15K
Prepare, Plan and Pray!
Is this a bucket list thing? lol maybe yes.

[Flyguyeddy]

Id like to throw my opinion in on this as well. 

I am also unable to get a hangar any where near me to use to store the plane and i do not live out in the country, sadly. 

I plan to install the airbike folding wing mechanism and a form of what the bodacious has for the horizontal stabilizer.  I am attempting to save weight by using round struts with foam or aluminum flashing fairings, and an ultravair engine.  We shall see how it works out. 

[scottiniowa]

 
  also have a friend at a farm that's outside of airspace with lots of treeless county roads (he has an airstrip but quite windy there)) for testing/firstflight, I'm hoping i can get  

Just a comment on your comment:
So these roads are near the airstrip?  or lead to the strip? if the strip is "windy" so will be the roads.. plus roads have  ditches, mail boxes and generally power lines or signage.  One would have to talk to me long and hard to convince me a road is better than most any strip. Unless of course the strip is full of cattle, sheep or cactus. 

First flight on most any road is rarely a good idea. 

[dapug]

I doubt if I will be posting my design on the Internet for everyone to use. Their are several reasons for this, but the primary one is that, I currently just don't have any desire to be in the airplane design business. Because of that, I do not intend to spend the time it takes, to properly document the changes I make, well enough so that someone not able to design their own could duplicate my efforts safely.

Makes sense.  I was thinking more of an open design, just like open source software developers use - the design is published and revised as it is happening, with the community able to critique.  However, respecting the closed nature of the original plans is important, not just for legal reasons, but just good ethics, so it could be tricky depending on the extent of the mod.  In any case, there really needs to be either a folding or quick-remove wing option on this plane.

[dapug]

I should probably also add that my preliminary testing so far indicates that to lighten the LEXL enough to add folding wings, while keeping the same strength, is going to nearly double the cost of the airframe. The wing is already extremely light and strong, so to lighten it further is going to involve using exotic materials like, carbon fiber, and titanium.

Have you seen the Belite UltraCub wing?  Carbon spars, aluminum ribs + carbon rib stiffeners:



Full details here:
http://jameswiebe.blogspot.com/2010/11/building-carbon-fiber-wing-with.html

I wonder about this approach but with wood ribs (and carbon stiffeners).  Belite claims a hefty 12lb weight savings using carbon like this, versus their all aluminum option, but again, not sure how wood compares.

I am currently making test samples of a carbon fiber vacuum molded leading edge, which, if my first design works will save a couple of pounds. But the preliminary cost estimate for that leading edge is $456.00, and that is for the actual materials used only, it doesn't include the mold or expendable supplies.

Cool. Ambitious. Part of the attraction of the LE is the ease of build using basic tools.  But if you found a practical way of doing this, great. I'm curious how you will get the right shape with the vacuum (my understanding of such wings is that it needs a perfectly shaped core + jig to sandwich it).

Curious too, have you also considered quick-remove wings rather than folding?

[Flyguyeddy]

http://www.jordanlakeaero.com/FoldingWing.html For the airbike setup.   Here’s some pics.   On the LEXL you’d probably want to keep the wing lift struts near the fuselage with cables intact for this.