Real world T/O and Landing

[Algoa]

Let's assume a Better Half equipped XL at 475# gross, a density altitude of 2400', and a nice grass strip. What would be the real world take off over 50' obstacle and real world landing over a 20' obstacle be?

Dave

[Tom H]

Dave, this is from a few years ago when we were flying LEU Treehugger.  It had a 29 hp half VW - the bare minimum, in my opinion.  When I flew it, the gross was around 520 lbs.  We flew it from a 1700 ft grass strip with trees at each end.  It would roll and lift off fairly quickly, maybe couple hundred feet, but climbed slowly after leaving ground effect, clearing the trees at the end by "not much".  To try to answer your question of TO over 50 ft - I would estimate 1200-1400 ft. for Treehugger.

Landing was no issue.  It would slip right down and land a couple hundred feet past the trees, with roll out maybe another 100 ft. 

You did not ask, but I'll recommend that you put 35-40 hp minimum half VW in it to get decent performance.  If you search, you can find some youtube videos of Joe Spencer in Putt-putt with a 45 hp half VW climbing like a bat out of Hades.  Major performance improvement compared to Treehugger.

[Algoa]

You did not ask, but I'll recommend that you put 35-40 hp minimum half VW in it to get decent performance.

Well, that was my next question, so let's go there...   My neighbor an I would like to each build a LE/XL and fly out of our combined 10 acres out in the county. We have 500' of good grass pointed into the prevailing SE wind with 20' obstructions on each end. He is 180# with no pilot license and I am 275# with a SEL ticket. I am trying to determine the biggest engine he can use and stay legal and the biggest engine I can use and not break anything.

Dave

[Dan_]

 We have 500' of good grass pointed into the prevailing SE wind with 20' obstructions on each end. He is 180# with no pilot license and I am 275# with a SEL ticket. I am trying to determine the biggest engine he can use and stay legal and the biggest engine I can use and not break anything.
Dave

Put the 45 horse on both of them and get rid of the obstructions on both ends.  Leonard once told me 600 ft. would be enough for a gravity enhanced individual, if the field was clear on both ends.  This was back before the "high powered" engines were out there.

I suppose a fence would not be as bad a safety concern, but I know a guy who hit one taking off from his yard in a Quicksilver.  He still flies, but his back was permanently injured.  Come to find out, his ignition switch grounded out on him...

If we had a good climb rate and airspeed we could get close on the 50ft obstacle guesstimates I suppose.

I would recommend training to at least Cessna 150 solo sign-off for your friend, and not using a short field with obstacles. 

Always leave yourself an out.

[Steve]

Let's assume a Better Half equipped XL at 475# gross, a density altitude of 2400', and a nice grass strip. What would be the real world take off over 50' obstacle and real world landing over a 20' obstacle be?

Dave

Follow Frank Johnson and his 3 cyl radial with the long prop - the most performance with the least weight - just say'n... He and others will be flying that engine shortly...

[Algoa]

Put the 45 horse on both of them and get rid of the obstructions on both ends.

Which 45hp would that be? Any of them (Hirth/VW), or did you have one in mind?  Maybe a 4Ao84? That 42hp Verner 3-cyl radial sure looks sexy!

He doesn't have a license, but he does have over 50 hours of solo/dual including XC, and has passed the written twice. Just never took the check ride... go figure...

[Dan_]

That 42hp Verner 3-cyl radial sure looks sexy!

The Verner is lighter as well...  Go for it!

[Algoa]

But the 4A084 is so cheap! (and yeah, 50# heavier)

[stevejahr]

From what I have read... the biggest performance boost is a reduction drive combined with a large diameter slow turning propeller.  Direct drive limits either the RPMs (and thus power) or the propeller diameter due to tip speed efficiency limits.

[XL-C-100]

The 4a084 is cheap but like always it's a compromise. As you stated its comes in significantly heavier. I have 7 lbs attached to the tail spring to get my cg right, plus a carb heat setup, plus the motor mount weight, that's all added to the 125 or so pounds that the engine weighs. All that being said you will still end up under max gross weight for any pilot under 230 or so. 
With the very limited flight time so far I am very happy with how the plane flies but I would definitely not feel comfortable flying off a 500 foot strip, maybe 1000-1200.

[PropMan]

Not my personal experience but observations. A 37 hp LE XL will lift off in 150 to 200 ft roll with a 180ish lb pilot. And climb 300 to 450 ft  per min. And that is a Heavy craft. 

Depending on the prop. 

Seems like i remember Les climbs 600 to 700 ft min with his LEXL 45 hp. 
Joe has reported  better than  800 ft min climb in Put put with his 45hp.

I anticipate better than 1000 ft min with the Verner 3VW engine on my LE. It will be turning a 67" dia prop at 2100-2200 rpm for max power. Making approx 230 lbs of pull.

[Algoa]

I anticipate better than 1000 ft min with the Verner 3VW engine on my LE. It will be turning a 67" dia prop at 2100-2200 rpm for max power. Making approx 230 lbs of pull.

I would love to drive up from Houston and see that; and at some point pick up a couple of those 3VWs with climb props.

[PropMan]

Come on up anytime.  Give me a call. 713-417-2519