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Author Topic: 3D printed 1 piece carbon fiber frame - Disrupting the strandards  (Read 7852 times)

Offline Bee

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I'm opening a discussion of fusing technologies.

I am working on a 3D printer capable of making parts as large as you wish to design the printer to go.  My discussion is similar but different from this one. 

Has anyone considered?

https://www.eaglersnest.com/forum/index.php?topic=1709.msg9733#msg9733

I am new to this forum and recently became aware of the Legal Eagle after looking for a way to build a plane using a low coast 4ft x 8 ft CNC called the Maslow.

I'm a leading member in the Maslow forum.  The CNC runs ~$600 which is very inexpensive for the tool you end up with.  The Kit is ~$425, the rest is the cost of the router and materials.  This is background and not a sales pitch as I don'r work for them.  I will say Boat builders are in love with the thing and that is how I got to the Legal Eagle.

I fully intend to build a Legal Eagle.

Before I got involved with the Maslow I was working on PPD or  Printing project Daedalus, large scale 3D printing starting with a build volume of 610 mm x 610 mm x 3048 mm - or 2ft x 2 ft x 10 ft.  The second phase of this is larger moving from 3048 mm /10 ft tall to  9144 mm /30 ft tall.  My first goal is going to be boat mast.

Sitting here I was thinking about MicroPC applications with Fuel Injection on 2 cylinder VW engines.  Suddenly I thought of CarbonFiber Engine mounts.  This then played out like this "wait why make just the engine mount to CarbonFiber?"

I was a key player in the developing the consumer 3D printing market.  The Printer I'm working on could scale to make the airframe.

So I have multiple levels of ideas on this and corresponding questions.

The first are Basics - What is the weight of the current airframe?

How long is the current Airframe?

How wide is the widest point of the Airframe?

Is there anyone interested is helping to develop this?

Is anyone interested close to Van Nuys California?

I know of many different ways to go about this.  I feel I may have a leg up as my grandfather was Head Machinists for Hughes Aircraft and my father worked in Aerospace Fasteners 

What are other peoples thoughts?

Thank you
Bee

Offline CHARLES DEBOER

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Re: 3D printed 1 piece carbon fiber frame - Disrupting the strandards
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2018, 04:14:02 PM »
I currently have a flying LE XL at Camarillo airport about 40 miles north of Van Nuys on the 101 FWY.  You are welcome to come to my hangar and check out the Legal Eagle.  All of the information you need can be found in the drawings for only $25.  You can also PM me at this web site.  I would very much like to check out your CNC project.

Offline Golden Eagle

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Re: 3D printed 1 piece carbon fiber frame - Disrupting the strandards
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2018, 05:36:05 PM »
Hi,

  I’m not sure what you mean by 3D printed carbon fiber plane.  You cannot “print” carbon fiber, at least not in the traditional sense of 3D printing.

  I imagine you can use a 3D router to fashion carbon fiber parts, but I don’t know if that it being done.

  Carbon fiber products gets their strength along many strands of fiber.  It is strongest in tensile strength, and about half as strong in compression.  To construct anything out of carbon fiber material, you have to lay up bundled layers of multiple strands in the intended direction of strength. I don’t think 3D printing can accommodate the composite nature needed for making parts out of carbon fiber.

  To answer a couple of your questions:

How heavy is the basic chromoly airframe?  Roughly 39 lbs.
What is the widest part (of the fuselage)?  Approx. 28”
How long is the current airframe?    Approx. 14’ 6”.
Is anybody interested in helping develop this?  I am interested in a carbon fiber fuselage, but it cannot be “3D printed”.  It would have to be with pre-made tubes.  I’d be happy to listen to something I am unfamiliar with.  I might learn, and that is always a plus.

Best regards,
Mike

Offline Bee

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Re: 3D printed 1 piece carbon fiber frame - Disrupting the strandards
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2018, 01:56:20 AM »
Hi,

For anyone interested in the CNC system it's called Maslow CNC.

http://www.maslowcnc.com/

It's an open source project and always going through improvements driven by the community.  I suspect the same it true of this community as well.

I'm a technologist.  I live about a decade in the future.  Printing on the scale I'm discussing is not common even in commercial systems. I stated learning about 3D printing in commercial systems when I started back in 1995. There are a few systems that can do infinite volume because it's a tool head working over a conveyor belt.

I'm pretty well versed on CF.  Carbon Fiber adds strength.  Depending on how your handle CF it's strength is variable.  There are both 3D printer filaments that have directional CF filament embedded in them and software to control the direction of bias during the print.  There are other filaments that fuse Carbon Fiber as a suspension in plastics that can double the strength of the part.  In addition I have the ability when 3D printing to use a variety of internal support structures.  By the way I have consulted on many levels with the US Air force on the use of 3D printers.

I think we need to define how people are using Carbon Fiber or what they call Carbon Fiber. Carbon fiber by it's self is just a floppy material like fiberglass. One of the discussions is how CF is laid up.  Of the manufactures of CF tubes I've talked to, they are advertising the benefit of strength to weight ratio of the material but I know of none that have manufacturing standards outside of tolerance.  I can't get a guaranteed Rockwell Hardness report on how a purchased part will perform.  I will say most of what is available to the public is just resin laminated.  When people talk of the strength of CF they are often citing the material used in fishing rods and Aerospace.  These are baked in a oven at extremely high temperatures to achieve the advertised strength.  These are custom built ovens that consumer ovens will not reach.  Nasa paid for the projects ovens that I'm referring to.  I spent a lot of time talking to the owner of the ovens about his CF process.  My sister went to school with the daughter of the owner of the first fishing rod company that ever used CF.  The tubes we are talking about do not go through proper baking to achieve this level of hardness and strength.

So depending on how you are achieving your goal I assure you, you can print an Airframe.  I can't say without further testing how much a printed part will weigh verses a standard tube without some testing.  As you have a variable infill in printing you can program the stiffness of the part and it's weight. 

There is also the possibility of building printed airframe of metal alloys.  Again I'm pushing the envelope of size.  There is a very slick 3D printing system called Desktop Metal that could make all kinds of custom parts.

I make it sound easy.  It is a vary difficult process to go from concept to part.  There are a small number of people that have the skills to  design, print and implement parts.  The power of 3D printing is the ability to make changes to a design rapidly and repeatability, to produce a proven design.  For what can be 3D printed it can enable prototyping and small scale manufacturing.  I have a long history of working with 3D printing and the longer I work with it the better I understand it's applications.  Not everything can be or should be 3D printed.  It's just a tool, however it is a enabling tool for people that learn to use it.  As an engineer I see it as part of my solutions not the only solution. 

Routing Carbon Fiber is a bad idea in my book.  The results are highly toxic.  Forgiving that fact you will produce heat, lots of it and uncontrolled temperatures, that will cause your parts to be unstable due to the changes caused by the heat.  The answer there is to over compensate with more material but that defeats the weight savings.  

One other possibility is to 3D print a 1 time use mold and then cast an alloy. 

I do appreciate the input as I can do some small scale testing on a desktop printer and then multiply out the results to see if I can beat the weight.  The biggest change is opening up the build envelope to accommodate the width and that just requires more space probably 1ft in X & Y

Thank you
Bee

Offline Dan_

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Re: 3D printed 1 piece carbon fiber frame - Disrupting the strandards
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2018, 10:30:22 AM »
An RC model could give you some valuable insight.



If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they go...

Offline Golden Eagle

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Re: 3D printed 1 piece carbon fiber frame - Disrupting the strandards
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2018, 10:33:36 AM »
I REALLY like this model, Dan!!!!

Offline Bee

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Re: 3D printed 1 piece carbon fiber frame - Disrupting the strandards
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2018, 10:51:08 AM »
Wow!  I love the RC Model.  That is a good idea.

Dan, Thank you

Offline Bee

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Re: 3D printed 1 piece carbon fiber frame - Disrupting the strandards
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2018, 11:04:42 AM »
Resources - 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hangprinter

Please see the 4 Meter print. 

https://markforged.com/

https://markforged.com/materials/

https://www.desktopmetal.com/

https://www.matterhackers.com/news/filament-strength-testing

Also as I previously mentioned the US Air Force and many top Universities work on this every day innovating new technologies.  In addition there are manufactures releasing new materials on a daily basis.  It's a fast moving target.  In fact it's a full time job keeping up with the changes.  

Here is a site dedicated to innovation in 3D printing.

https://www.3ders.org/

Thank you

Offline Terry Lundby

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Re: 3D printed 1 piece carbon fiber frame - Disrupting the strandards
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2018, 05:10:12 PM »
Hello, Bee.  
Very interesting, your post on additive manufacturing. I just now watched PBS Newshour, they aired a segment on Desktop Metals and Relativity. Three days to construct a fuel tank that previously required a year to construct, three parts to build a rocket engine that NASA has relit 80 times... Amazing!

In regards to the Legal Eagle, have you considered using additive fabrication to manufacture clusters for every joint of the LE fuselage truss? Some type of cluster and socket design. These clusters could be used to build a truss fuselage of 2024. I think a nice compromise in regards to cost to an all composite truss.

Terry.
Terry

Offline Bee

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Re: 3D printed 1 piece carbon fiber frame - Disrupting the strandards
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2018, 06:49:56 PM »
Terry,

I need to dive in and get the drawings.  I will probably do a mock up in PVC to get a feel for the size.  What I'm hoping is there may be benefit in eliminating joints by coming up wit a 1 piece fabrication.  However I am exploring small part fabrication based on input from others here.  

Thank you

 

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